D&D 5E (2024) Class Tier List 1 Year Later.

[Zardnaar]

Which as I pointed out, doesn't matter. Bards are better at control, which is were casters matter, and they can heal, and buff, and are much much better at social. And the things that bards don't do well wizards cover better than sorcerers.

And if you have INT based skills, there is a very good chance that there is no one else better than you at those.

Twin spell and heighten spell. Sure on the better at control part?

Tashas mindwhip plus twin spell. Clown on the MM.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think there's still room for classes to be C-tier. 5.5e has mostly addressed the D-tier issues, but there's still some....I guess I would call it +/- factors involved. IMO, Ranger has been lifted from D to C by 5.5e--it passes.

Wizard is A+ if you have either a GM who lets you pick up spells frequently, or (as noted) fewer encounters per day. The former definitely isn't guaranteed, but the latter is in my experience almost universal. That is, I've literally never had a single 5e group where the group actually did do 6-8 combat encounters per day. Maybe, MAYBE an average of 5 encounters per day. If you have both of these effects, Wizard is absolutely S-tier even at lower levels.

Conversely, if your group is starved for short rests, I could see Warlock, Fighter (especially Battle Master), and Barbarian becoming X- or even dropping a tier.

Certainly the tier ranges are much better than 3e's tiers were, but that's damning with faint praise given how absolutely horrendous the balance problems and tier differences were in 5e. "Better than one of the most broken games ever published" is hardly a difficult bar to clear.

Even on 3-5 encounters wizards not that great to level 6. 1 and two spells tend to be weak. Poor AoE and small AoE control.

Other spellcasters same spell pattern but more sauce to add on top of it

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Twin spell and heighten spell. Sure on the better at control part?

Tashas mindwhip plus twin spell. Clown on the MM.

Unless Mind Whip is much changed it can’t be twinned.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Wizard is A+ if you have either a GM who lets you pick up spells frequently, or (as noted) fewer encounters per day. The former definitely isn't guaranteed, but the latter is in my experience almost universal. That is, I've literally never had a single 5e group where the group actually did do 6-8 combat encounters per day. Maybe, MAYBE an average of 5 encounters per day. If you have both of these effects, Wizard is absolutely S-tier even at lower levels

Yup, you really need to assume that for any serious fight, the party is going in fully loaded (as the wizard scouted it out with their familiar).

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Even on 3-5 encounters wizards not that great to level 6. 1 and two spells tend to be weak. Poor AoE and small AoE control.

Other spellcasters same spell pattern but more sauce to add on top of it

Then why doesn't that EXACT SAME LOGIC apply to Sorcerers????

There are--only and exactly--four levelled spells that a Sorcerer can cast that a Wizard can't in that level range. They are, alphabetically by level, chaos bolt, flame blade, daylight, water walk, plus the cantrip sorcerous burst, which I admit is pretty good for a cantrip. Of them, water walk is the only ritual. Conversely, Wizards can cast--and I am not exaggerating--43 levelled spells and one cantrip (toll the dead) which Sorcerers can't at levels 1-6, and thirteen of them are rituals. And several of these are good spells, too! Find familiar, Tasha's hideous laughter, augury, borrowed knowledge, continual flame, bestow curse, fast friends, glyph of warding, Leomund's tiny hut, phantom steed, sending, spirit shroud (for Bladesingers, anyway), summon undead, tiny servant.

As long as a Wizard gets even one single short rest, they can cast at least as many spells as the Sorcerer could if they exclusively blew all of their SP on creating new spell slots. It's only at level 7--outside the range you mentioned--that SP become the tiniest bit more efficient than Arcane Recovery.

So I'm legit asking you: Why doesn't this logic also apply to the Sorcerer? As a Dragon Sorcerer, my subclass gave me an AC boost and some more HP. That's essentially it. Are you seriously arguing that that is enough to take Sorcerer from C-tier to S-tier?

 

[Zardnaar]

Then why doesn't that EXACT SAME LOGIC apply to Sorcerers????

There are--only and exactly--four levelled spells that a Sorcerer can cast that a Wizard can't in that level range. They are, alphabetically by level, chaos bolt, flame blade, daylight, water walk, plus the cantrip sorcerous burst, which I admit is pretty good for a cantrip. Of them, water walk is the only ritual. Conversely, Wizards can cast--and I am not exaggerating--43 levelled spells and one cantrip (toll the dead) which Sorcerers can't at levels 1-6, and thirteen of them are rituals. And several of these are good spells, too! Find familiar, Tasha's hideous laughter, augury, borrowed knowledge, continual flame, bestow curse, fast friends, glyph of warding, Leomund's tiny hut, phantom steed, sending, spirit shroud (for Bladesingers, anyway), summon undead, tiny servant.

Low level sorcerers suck as well.
. Secret sauce is metamagic. Twin spell is stupidly cheap. One Sorcery point. In effect a sorcerer has a lot more spells.

It basically doubles or 50% more a lot of good control spells. If they AoE a spell eg fear they can heighten it.

Wizards access to scrolls and spells is DM dependent, time dependent and treasure dependent. Adventure or campaign as well.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yup, you really need to assume that for any serious fight, the party is going in fully loaded (as the wizard scouted it out with their familiar).

And in my experience, a Wizard can do pretty much exactly that. 3-5 combats a day is the typical experience I've had, and that comports with every discussion I've had about it with other people on this forum and elsewhere.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Low level sorcerers suck as well.
. Secret sauce is metamagic. Twin spell is stupidly cheap. One Sorcery point.

It basically doubles or 50% more a lot of good control spells. If they AoE a spell eg fear they can heighten it.

Wizards access to scrolls and spells is DM dependent, tine dependent and treasure dependent. Adventure or campaign as well

......................

So if low-level Sorcerer sucks, and low-level Wizard sucks....and you agree that high-level Wizard is better than high-level Sorcerer...

Then why, for God's sake, is Wizard ranked three tiers below Sorcerer?

 

[FrogReaver]

Even on 3-5 encounters wizards not that great to level 6. 1 and two spells tend to be weak. Poor AoE and small AoE control.

Then the same applies to Sorcerers. Do you really feel that way about your S tier class?

 

[Zardnaar]

......................

So if low-level Sorcerer sucks, and low-level Wizard sucks....and you agree that high-level Wizard is better than high-level Sorcerer...

Then why, for God's sake, is Wizard ranked three tiers below Sorcerer?

Ar high levels its closer yes. Its really level 7 spells plus wish where wizard runs away with it. That's tier 4.

Wizards get better around 10-13. Theres a good chance the game wont go that high.

Have a look at Wizard level 6 abilities. Sorcerer can metamagic all their lvl 2 and 3 spells. Bards get bard dice, clerics get channel divinity. Wizards lack resources by comparison and their class abilities aren't really there yet.

Diviners gets two potential awesome spells. On two targets assuming you rolled well. Situational and random.

Invokers B tier vs other wizards. Isn't that good at damage until 10.

Aburerer got indirectly nerfed.

Illusionist is good.

Youre competing with level 6 bard, sorcerer, cleric abilities.

Damage also sucks even by spellcaster standards. That improves later on.