How do you define "Heartbreaker?"

[Evaniel]

I've seen this term used a lot lately, but I don't have a clear sense of how people define it, and I suspect that this has led to some talking past one another. I'm curious how you personally define this term.

 

[Reynard]

Most people think it broadly means "a game like D&D." But what it really means is a game created with the intent of being a better D&D but without any experience with of knowledge of other games and previous advances in system.

Most of the "design" you see on places like r/dnd is at least Heartbreaker adjacent.

 

[soviet]

It comes from an essay by Ron Edwards:

The Forge :: Fantasy Heartbreakers

As coined a fantasy heartbreaker is a game designed by someone with a genuine love of the field, and some cool original ideas that had the potential to be great, but that was blinkered by too little knowledge of the wider hobby and so created something that ultimately didn't land.

The heartbreak is partly about 'this could have been something great' and partly about 'this person spent a lot of money to print a thousand hardcovers they couldn't sell'.

 

[soviet]

As the barriers to publishing have largely fallen away, and awareness of other games has massively increased, heartbreakers are now quite rare.

Note that OSR type projects where people are knowingly trying to make something akin to 'D&D but different' are not heartbreakers, albeit they may be called one on the internet.

 

[Reynard]

As the barriers to publishing have largely fallen away, and awareness of other games has massively increased, heartbreakers are now quite rare.

Note that OSR type projects where people are knowingly trying to make something akin to 'D&D but different' are not heartbreakers, albeit they may be called one on the internet.

The Open Gaming movement has also muddied the waters. Was Pathfinder 1E a "heartbreaker"? Obviously not, because of its success, but what if it had flopped?

13th Age, ToV or A5E aren't because each is very aware of the broader technological advancement in RPG systems. But sometimes people will still use the term for those games.

And what of Dungeon World and other games meant to capture an imagined past of D&D?

 

[Morrus]

I think the term is generally used in a derogatory sense. A product with a small print run can still be a success. It’s a bit like saying the local restaurant is a foody heartbreaker because it didn’t overturn McDonalds. It was never meant to. But it does provide the restaurant owner, and their employees, a living and a salary. It is successful in their eyes, and those of their loyal customers.

There’s a weird idea I sometimes see espoused here and elsewhere that the only way a game can be a success is if it does better than D&D. Which it won’t, of course. And why should it have to?

 

[soviet]

The Open Gaming movement has also muddied the waters. Was Pathfinder 1E a "heartbreaker"? Obviously not, because of its success, but what if it had flopped?

13th Age, ToV or A5E aren't because each is very aware of the broader technological advancement in RPG systems. But sometimes people will still use the term for those games.

And what of Dungeon World and other games meant to capture an imagined past of D&D?

I don't think any of these are heartbreakers, either artistically or commercially.

 

[Umbran]

I think the term is generally used in a derogatory sense. A product with a small print run can still be a success. It’s a bit like saying the local restaurant is a foody heartbreaker because it didn’t overturn McDonalds. It was never meant to. But it does provide the restaurant owner, and their employees, a living and a salary. It is successful in their eyes, and those of their loyal customers.

There’s a weird idea I sometimes see espoused here and elsewhere that the only way a game can be a success is if it does better than D&D. Which it won’t, of course. And why should it have to?

With respect, Morrus, I think you are a bit short of the mark of what an rpg heartbreaker is.

If we go with your analogy: The Foody Heartbreaker restaurant doesn't continue to provide a living for a small number of people. It closes, because while it had some remarkable dishes on the menu, the people who opened it didn't know how to manage a professional kitchen.

 

[Morrus]

With respect, Morrus, I think you are a bit short of the mark of what an rpg heartbreaker is.

If we go with your analogy: The Foody Heartbreaker restaurant doesn't continue to provide a living for a small number of people. It closes, because while it had some remarkable dishes on the menu, the people who opened it didn't know how to manage a professional kitchen.

You missed my point. The Foody Heartbreaker didn’t close but is still referred to as a heartbreaker.

My point is that people use the term wrong. They use it to derogatorily describe small d20-based games, and that’s not what the term originally meant.

 

[Umbran]

You missed my point. The Foody Heartbreaker didn’t close but is still referred to as a heartbreaker.

My point is that people use the term wrong. They use it to derogatorily describe small d20-based games, and that’s not what the term originally meant.

Okay, I think we were talking about mostly the same thing, but past each other.

I don't know that I've seen it used "derogatorily", but I will agree that the current use is often softened from the original intent.