What Do You Think Of As "Modern TTRPG Mechanics"?

[Neonchameleon]

I never said there wasn't a genre of heroic D&D-inspired fantasy, I said that it seems problematic to identify the mechanics of D&D as genre-inspired when those mechanics (in part) spawned the genre in the first place.

This argument I consider works for at least the first half of the TSR era and at least arguably for the 2e era. But D&D has for the more recent half of its life not been the property of TSR - and D&D 3.0 was deliberately a "back to the dungeon" retroclone, changing overwhelming amounts of the mechanics while keeping what were considered the mechanical core identity. 4e tried to refine the D&D experience and 5e was explicitly backward looking under the name "One D&D" and trying hard for what felt like D&D.

 

[SableWyvern]

I never said there wasn't a genre of heroic D&D-inspired fantasy, I said that it seems problematic to identify the mechanics of D&D as genre-inspired when those mechanics (in part) spawned the genre in the first place. Even with the idea of 'recursive' in play I think you'd to actually identify an example of how the genre fed back into the game in order for this idea to carry any water. It's certainly not obviously the case that any specific D&D mechanics are a direct result of recursive movement from the genre you identify back into the game. Of course, there might be some, but I think the burden of proof lies with the person who's making the claim. It's certainly possible, but it's not obvious.

Yes, when I chose the word recursive, I was thinking of a conversation like this;

- D&D mechanics are designed to emulate a genre.

- Oh, what, genre?

- The genre of games that use D&D mechanics.

I probably should have just said circular, rather than recursive because, as you point out, there isn't really any sort of ongoing feedback loop .

 

[GobHag]

I think if you don't consume modern fantasy media--as in from the early 10s to now--it's easy to believe that D&D is in it's own bubble, but if you do stuff like watch newer anime, play video games, or do some LitRPG reading then one wouldn't realize how much of D&D is out there into the world and now being reflected back into it.

 

[Parmandur]

Oh look, that's not even remotely what we're specifically talking about. The topic at hand is D&D-inspired heroic fantasy, not heroic fantasy in general.

That is clearly what @Neonchameleon was talking about: OD&D and AD&D were designed to emulate specific genre tropes.

 

[SableWyvern]

I think if you don't consume modern fantasy media--as in from the early 10s to now--it's easy to believe that D&D is in it's own bubble, but if you do stuff like watch newer anime, play video games, or do some LitRPG reading then one wouldn't realize how much of D&D is out there into the world and now being reflected back into it.

Even if that's the case, it's not the existence of mechanics that have been around since the 1970s (eg, classes, levels and hit points, which are the examples that were given for genre reinforcing rules) that are the result of recent pop culture.

 

[SableWyvern]

That is clearly what @Neonchameleon was talking about: OD&D and AD&D were designed to emulate specific genre tropes.

Specifically, the claim was that the tropes they emulate are those of "D&D-derived fantasy". They can't have been designed to emulate something that would only come into being once it was derived from their existence.

And this leads to why this sort of conversation makes me want to tear my hair out. When I think of mechanics in tabletop RPGs that try to enforce genre my first three thoughts are:

• Hit points with basically no actual meaningful injuries or shock penalties
• Levels
• A heavily structured class system

And yet people on ENWorld, a D&D forum, claim to not want genre enforcing mechanics.

So what 'genre' are we talking about here?

D&D-derived heroic fantasy.

 

[Fenris-77]

That is clearly what @Neonchameleon was talking about: OD&D and AD&D were designed to emulate specific genre tropes.

Clearly not when he uses the phrase D&D-inspired heroic fantasy, which is an entirely different beast than the heroic fantasy that inspired D&D.

 

[Fenris-77]

I'm not even suggesting that it's impossible that some element of that D&D inspired genre that wasn't inspired in the first place by D&D mechanics has subsequently generated a mechanic to reflect it. I can't think of an example but this is also something quite different than claims about classes, levels, and HP.

 

[GobHag]

Even if that's the case, it's not the existence of mechanics that have been around since the 1970s (eg, classes, levels and hit points, which are the examples that were given for genre reinforcing rules) that are the result of recent pop culture.

I think DND classes are 100% genre rules--agreed that they aren't recent PopCult tho.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm not even suggesting that it's impossible that some element of that D&D inspired genre that wasn't inspired in the first place by D&D mechanics has subsequently generated a mechanic to reflect it. I can't think of an example but this is also something quite different than claims about classes, levels, and HP.

I'm going to use an analogy.

The Star Wars OT did things the way it did because it was innovative and groundbreaking and they were working things out as they went, trying their hardest to make a new thing. Many of the choices were good, some were bad, and most were innovative.

The Star Wars Sequel Trilogy made a lot of its decisions with the intent of feeling like Star Wars - that is being part of the Star Wars genre. (This isn't to say you can't make new and creative extensions using the Star Wars setting; witness Andor - but that isn't what the ST tried to do)

The time gap between the OT and the ST is about the same as that between oD&D and 5e. And the level of change is similar. And there were similar goals of bringing back nostalgia and uniting the fans. (This doesn't mean that 5e is as bad as the ST; Crawford and Mearls know what a functional game is but Jar-Jar Abrams doesn't seem to know what a functional story is - but this might be that 5e doesn't have to be more ambitious than The Force Awakens).