D&D 5E (2024) 3 cantrips per round with the Bladesinger’s Extra Attack, Eldritch Knight’s War Magic and Haste? (5 with Action Surge?)

[Silam]

I’ve read threads converging towards the consensus that BS Extra Attack and EK War Magic can be combined.

I’ve also seen threads converging towards Haste being combined with the above abilities to cast an extra cantrip with the single extra attack it provides.

By the RAW, it seems to me that the above two should be combinable, yielding 3 cantrips per round for a 13 level multiclass gish (BS6, EK7) while concentrating on Haste. This could be done at will.

("At will", while slots for Haste last, and it’s also important to take note of the fairly debilitating effects when Haste ends… though it’s nowhere near as bad as the metabolic shock which the AD&D 2nd ed version of Haste caused, literally leading to the death of one of my old bladesingers, but I digress).

And to really cheese it up, we could possibly tack on another 2 cantrips with the extra attack action from Action Surge, for a grand total of 5 cantrips in one round? (Though that is a flash in the pan since you can’t use Action Surge very often)

Thoughts, comments, concerns, insults (as long as you make an effort to keep them funny), are all welcome. And sorry if it has already been discussed (I haven’t found it).

 

[Silam]

Assuming there is no flaw in the above logic, I am interested to explore the implications of this quirky build...

It certainly should raise some red flags as even if it's RAW, it probably isn't RAI... but I don't necessarily think it's overpowered either.

At 13th level, I bet there are quite a few builds more powerful than BS6, EK7. Even if constraining to a gish build, a BS13 or Bard of Valor 13 are probably more powerful than this very fragmented progression?

But I guess it's interesting in the (potentially narrow) context of campaigns with an emphasis on endurance. Like, not one of those campaigns where you take a long rest between each battle. Rather, one of those campaigns where it's not even possible at all to take a long rest in the middle of a dungeon (you'll just be interrupted indefinitely during those 8 hours, until TPK). For those type of endurance based campaigns, it becomes a weaker argument to say that "at high levels, a wizard has enough slots for every single round that they'll fight in a day, and therefore it's always a bad idea to spend a round on cantrips or attack actions, rather than spending slots" (which is a fairly decent argument for a non-endurance kind of game).

So if you think of it with the above frame of mind, what kind of cantrips would you have in your roster, if on most rounds you were slinging 2 or 3 of them, and only occasionally spending slots? Some that come to mind for me:

• For the gish flavor:
  • True Strike
  • Booming Blade
  • Green-Flame Blade (these two haven't been updated for 2024, right?)
• For protection:
  • Blade Ward (if you chose not to use Haste for that battle, and therefore have your concentration available)
• Tactical:
  • Shocking Grasp
  • Mind Sliver (does this stack? seems like it)... you could potentially impose a 3d4 penalty on the next save (EDIT: no, it wouldn’t stack, but could still be intetesting to throw in to "prime" the target before spending a precious slot next round), or at least get a better shot that at least one of the saves fail.
• Any of the long range attacks:
  • Fire Bolt, etc.
• AoE:
  • Thunderclap

What else?

 

[mellored]

Sorcerer, Quicken (mostly for Haste)

Illusionist, Bonus action minor Illusion. Not really for damage, but it is another cantrip per round.
Evoker 3, half damage on cantrips.
-yea, doesn’t stack with Bladesinger, just listing for completeness.

And no, Mind Sliver does not stack.
First because effects of the same name don't stack, you can't cast Bless 7 times on the same target to add 7d4.
Also, it would trigger itself. Which makes it very accurate to spam.

And no, it's not overpowered anymore. They fixed it so you can't use Eldritch Blast.

 

[Silam]

Good point regarding Mind Sliver stacking. Thanks for correcting. I edited the post to point this out.

 

[Zardnaar]

EK and Valor bard can be stacked that works.

Both your attacks can be cantrips. Action surge is 4.

As written haste grants an attack action. That's another cantrip.

Level 13 though.

5 levels of sorcerer you can quicken haste and use 5 cantrips. Level 18.

 

[ECMO3]

RAW Bladesinger extra attack and EK War Magic do not stack. PHB page 44:

"If you gain the Extra Attack feature from more than one class, the features don’t stack."

The way they worded this specifying "features" makes it pretty clear to me.

Haste is a little trickier. From the Haste description:

"That action can be used to take only the Attack (one attack only) ..."

This is debatable, but my interpretation is this overrides the rules for extra attack and since the features that allow you to cast a Cantrip with the attack action are part of extra attack it would override those also.

 

[Silam]

RAW Bladesinger extra attack and EK War Magic do not stack. PHB page 44:

"If you gain the Extra Attack feature from more than one class, the features don’t stack."

The way they worded this specifying "features" makes it pretty clear to me.

For the reason you cited, my understanding is that the Bladesinger’s and Valor Bard’s Extra Attacks cannot be combined, but that the EK’s War Magic can be combined with either of those.

 

[Silam]

Illusionist, Bonus action minor Illusion. Not really for damage, but it is another cantrip per round.
Evoker 3, half damage on cantrips.
-yea, doesn’t stack with Bladesinger, just listing for completeness.

But the BS Extra Attack can be substituted by the Valor Bard’s ability of the same name and level. So then you could sneak in those 3 levels of illusionist, if the goal is merely to cast as many cantrips per round as possible. Then we get to 4 cantrips per round at level 16 with Haste, and 6 with Haste and Action Surge.

I’m not a big fan of Minor Illusion, nor of Bard spells, so I don’t think I would reach for that build, but it’s interesting to understand the theoretical limits …

EDIT: another option is to do a one level dip into Druid, for the Bonus Action cantrips it provides (Shillelagh, Produce Flame), though they don’t really synergize well with the rest of the build…

 

[Zardnaar]

But the BS Extra Attack can be substituted by the Valor Bard’s ability of the same name and level. So then you could sneak in those 3 levels of illusionist, if the goal is merely to cast as many cantrips per round as possible. Then we get to 4 cantrips per round at level 16 with Haste, and 6 with Haste and Action Surge.

I’m not a big fan of Minor Illusion, nor of Bard spells, so I don’t think I would reach for that build, but it’s interesting to understand the theoretical limits …

EDIT: another option is to do a one level dip into Druid, for the Bonus Action cantrips it provides (Shillelagh, Produce Flame), though they don’t really synergize well with the rest of the build…

I think 7 spells per round is the most you can do. 5 of them are cantrips.

Its mostly theory crafting but EK7/ Valor Bard 6 is playable.

 

[mellored]

I think 7 spells per round is the most you can do. 5 of them are cantrips.

Its mostly theory crafting but EK7/ Valor Bard 6 is playable.

Kinda makes me wonder how many spells you can have active at once.

I.e. mage armor, longstride, jump, mirror image...