D&D General Lies, Darn Lies, and Statistics: Why DPR Isn't the Stat to Rule them All

[G'lich]

The argument here makes 0 sense. You seem fine with video games including cooldown abilities in damage metrics, but the moment a d&d player does the same thing it’s wrong?

Which is a bit ironic because encounter or daily powers are not random but player controlled and you still don’t want to include them.

For the most part crits change very little about DPR. I can get behind them being viewed as adding false precision, but I also think it’s important to consider them when the game itself grants features that improve crits and interact with the crit mechanics more than others. But whether you include it or not, not very much is going to actually change. Virtually all High DPR builds will still be a high DPR build with or without crits included in the DPR calculation.

As noted above, that’s a very misleading way to compare damage. Daily and Encounter powers substantially affect how much damage is being done. Leaving those as just words does nothing to account for their impact.

Do you understand what expected value is in probability theory? Do you understand why that concept is important?

Though most people are bad at estimating the impact of other metrics. Like higher ac vs DPR, or control or etc. Generally if you kill enemies faster you take less damage by denying enemies turns. Rarely do DPR haters factor higher DPR into party defenses.

There is no "cooldown "x" turns" in D&D for Powers.. Once when you use Encounter power it "perish".. While in video games after "cooldown", you can use the power again.. So it can be included "how often can power be activated per minute"..

"Wasted Damage" was "more" about Critical Hit (sorry my english grammar is not the best), you can see that point if you read the post again. And it is not possible to delay Critical Hit on minion, and later apply it next turn when PC actually needs it.. So, that was my point of "wasted damage"..

I rather see, example: "Name of" Power, 3W + mod damage than DPR of this power..

I understand theory.. I even got the concept, but in dice rolling from my perspective it cannot apply to calculate "average roll".. There are days when some PC will roll so low.. And other days, when they will roll on higher end.. (That is why some play so often casino games and never won, and some play so rarely and even profit.. Because there is no possibility to calculate "average won combination per how much someone plays it"..) And by the way, "that" theory is just hypothesis.. So it is not confirmed to be viewed as "clear truth"..

You did not understand my post about AC right.. "With higher AC, my "healer" can increase my Damage by hitting enemies, and not healing me..".. Also, I understand your point about faster killing, but with lower AC, PC will also die way faster.. And if one of PC die, and reduce numbers of PC in group, average "group DPS" (there you go!) will be drastically reduced..

 

[M_Natas]

There is no "cooldown "x" turns" in D&D for Powers.. Once when you use Encounter power it "perish".. While in video games after "cooldown", you can use the power again.. So it can be included "how often can power be activated per minute"..

Actually ... ^^
Some monsters have those cooldown abilities (Recharge 5,6). But yeah, PCs don't have those.

 

[G'lich]

Actually ... ^^
Some monsters have those cooldown abilities (Recharge 5,6). But yeah, PCs don't have those.

Also, in many video games I noticed that DPS (Damage per second/minute) is not "static".. If player activate some "buff" power that increase damage, DPS will change.. So, that is why I am saying that DPR is useless..
And in comparison, "per minute" "can be calculated", but "per round" cannot, because we never know how much rounds fight will take.. "Per minute" can try to calculate "average value", while in "per round" there is no way to do this.. example: Encounter power divided by? How much rounds? Round number is unknown..

I am not "fan" of DPS in video games either.. It is calculated this way = No miss, 100% hits every single second.. Like the enemy do not not defend at all (defend, reduce, avoid), and enemy not even moving so the player would actually waste second on catching enemy (where the player would lose some damage).. It is calculated like "perfect attacking situation"..

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The text was too long for me to read.

You get a thumbs up for the title alone.

DPR is only an indicator for damage dealers. Even then average DPR alone is quite useless.

Front loading, reliability, mobility, damage spikes, side effects, being able to stand ground, flexibility and so on are also very important indicators.

 

[Scott Christian]

@Snarf Zagyg

Thank you for explaining this in a way only you can. There have been so many debates on "balance" that it is impossible to count. The +1 argument is real. This hopefully helps DMs and players understand that the number of variables in a game diminish the "true statistic" many keep reaching for. Thank you again.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Also, in many video games I noticed that DPS (Damage per second/minute) is not "static".. If player activate some "buff" power that increase damage, DPS will change.. So, that is why I am saying that DPR is useless..
And in comparison, "per minute" "can be calculated", but "per round" cannot, because we never know how much rounds fight will take.. "Per minute" can try to calculate "average value", while in "per round" there is no way to do this.. example: Encounter power divided by? How much rounds? Round number is unknown..

I am not "fan" of DPS in video games either.. It is calculated this way = No miss, 100% hits every single second.. Like the enemy do not not defend at all (defend, reduce, avoid), and enemy not even moving so the player would actually waste second on catching enemy (where the player would lose some damage).. It is calculated like "perfect attacking situation"..

I can tell you that I was flamed in WOW because I did not skill the +1% damage power. Because 1% matters...
(it only matters if you can hit a certain threshold with it. Chances for that are low)

In diablo3 I was likewise flamed by friends of a friend because I did not skill the meta spells and the +20% damage ability... (as witch doctor)

And after playing with them, I can confidently say, that I did the highes amount of damage, because I did not constantly have to run from monsters or wait for my teammates to revive me...

That was the time when spirit bears were OP... as long as they actually could hit their target and not clip with the enviroment...

And here again:
You could only do the high damage build if you had perfect equipment and could increase your damage to a point where you kill enemies before they reach you and could sustain it with your mana regeneration.

If you can't, a build that actually has sustain and escape abilities is way more effective.

 

[el-remmen]

I know it is old, but this might be my favorite @Snarf Zagyg post ever. Firstly, I personally find DPR useless because I prefer a gestalt method for determining effectiveness within the context of a specific campaign (across the board claims are useless except at both extremes of usefulness or lack thereof).

Secondly, as someone who gave up watching MLB after decades of daily interest and stopped paying attention to the NBA in 1994ish, I felt a familiar frisson in the sport stat analogies.

 

[Kurotowa]

Also, in many video games I noticed that DPS (Damage per second/minute) is not "static".. If player activate some "buff" power that increase damage, DPS will change.. So, that is why I am saying that DPR is useless..
And in comparison, "per minute" "can be calculated", but "per round" cannot, because we never know how much rounds fight will take.. "Per minute" can try to calculate "average value", while in "per round" there is no way to do this.. example: Encounter power divided by? How much rounds? Round number is unknown..

Any serious DPS calculation will measure damage output over a period of several minutes, if not an entire boss fight, and average it down to a per-second number. If all your cooldowns refresh in a 2 minute cycle, then you measure over at least 2 minutes. Heck, the raid community for the current MMO I play (Final Fantasy 14) has three DPS numbers. One that subtracts the effects of group buffs from other players to measure how well you're doing your rotation, one that does the above but also adds in the effect of your group buffs across the party to measure your overall contribution to the fight, and one that subtracts specific single-target buffs to measure your AoE burst timing.

A serious DPR calculation would total up the damage across a theoretical average encounter, maybe 6 rounds long, and average it down. Heck, maybe have three DPR numbers. One for a single encounter day, one for two encounters between Short Rests, and one for four encounters between Long Rests with a Short Rest included. All three of those would give usefully different numbers for differently designed classes. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone break down D&D with that level of detail and modeling.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

There is no "cooldown "x" turns" in D&D for Powers.. Once when you use Encounter power it "perish".. While in video games after "cooldown", you can use the power again.. So it can be included "how often can power be activated per minute"..

"Wasted Damage" was "more" about Critical Hit (sorry my english grammar is not the best), you can see that point if you read the post again. And it is not possible to delay Critical Hit on minion, and later apply it next turn when PC actually needs it.. So, that was my point of "wasted damage"..

I rather see, example: "Name of" Power, 3W + mod damage than DPR of this power..

I understand theory.. I even got the concept, but in dice rolling from my perspective it cannot apply to calculate "average roll".. There are days when some PC will roll so low.. And other days, when they will roll on higher end.. (That is why some play so often casino games and never won, and some play so rarely and even profit.. Because there is no possibility to calculate "average won combination per how much someone plays it"..) And by the way, "that" theory is just hypothesis.. So it is not confirmed to be viewed as "clear truth"..

You did not understand my post about AC right.. "With higher AC, my "healer" can increase my Damage by hitting enemies, and not healing me..".. Also, I understand your point about faster killing, but with lower AC, PC will also die way faster.. And if one of PC die, and reduce numbers of PC in group, average "group DPS" (there you go!) will be drastically reduced..

DPR is a used as a comparison tool when comparing potential effectiveness rather than personal effectiveness.
For example when comparing Martials and Casters. - DPR is not the most effective use of caster resources, but it is the one that can be directly compared across classes, subclasses, builds etc.
So if a caster character, for whom DPR is one of the least effective uses of resources can match the DPR of a martial character, who can really only do DPR, the actual effectiveness of the caster can be assumed to be much higher when they actually use their resources in a more optimal fashion.

 

[jolt]

Many rpg's nowadays heavily suggest a session 0 for the whole group so they can make characters together. D&D and adjacent games like PF should do the same. Neither game really suits the solo adventurer so it's best to make sure you fir in well with the rest of the group. While you can (usually) make any group dynamic work, you'll be more effective if you take into account what everyone can contribute rather than just yourself. Everyone wants to make a solo god even though characters are never played that way.