What Do You Think Of As "Modern TTRPG Mechanics"?

[pemerton]

It was not the goal but oD&D even had significant mechanics that strongly encouraged the growth of stories and were dropped from later editions although would fit very well in modern narrativist games:

• XP for GP made the PCs strongly motivated to do stuff and towards not always doing the obvious
• Hirelings and the soft cap changed the relationship of the PCs to the world, from one of a large mob to one of a small party, to semi-retirement as movers and shakers; that's a story
• Asymmetric class balance that balances over the career not the adventuring day generates its own stories in a way modern D&D doesn't
• Power being based on loot is almost Roguelite and makes the practical characters far more unique and thus the game more replay able than builds, and this leads to interesting stories

It's not what he intended but genuine old school games, like many modern post-Forge games IME have more emergent and organic storytelling than most trad games.

I don't disagree with you about the mechanics, and some of their emergent consequences. But I think I do disagree a bit about how much this produces story.

The main RPG I've played (GMed) recently is Torchbearer 2e. It certainly ticks your first box (gp aren't XP, but there are other features of the game that makes every player motivated to have their PC obtain loot). But exactly this feature tends to somewhat lessen its story-esque orientation compared to its sibling Burning Wheel.

Like classic D&D, TB2e also has a strong inventory management aspect. And while this is interesting and quite fun in play - eg it's the only RPG I've ever played where so much turns on whether or not the PCs have shoes, and where wearing out your shoes hiking is a serious risk - I don't think this necessarily conduces to story.

I've not done any OSR RPGing in the strictest sense. Over the past decade, the only classic sort of play I've done is actually classic - sessions of AD&D (using my own version of the rules, that integrates a few bits of OA, UA and 2nd ed PC build) and Moldvay Basic. But I did recently run a session of Mythic Bastionland, and anticipate playing it some more. And in play, I was very struck by how gamist it is - much more than I anticipated, meaning that the relationship between play and the obvious thematic elements of the game was quite different from what I'd expected.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I don't disagree with you about the mechanics, and some of their emergent consequences. But I think I do disagree a bit about how much this produces story.

The main RPG I've played (GMed) recently is Torchbearer 2e. It certainly ticks your first box (gp aren't XP, but there are other features of the game that makes every player motivated to have their PC obtain loot). But exactly this feature tends to somewhat lessen its story-esque orientation compared to its sibling Burning Wheel.

Burning Wheel on the other hand is at a minimum Forge-adjacent or possibly actual Forge. It is not a normal baseline.

Like classic D&D, TB2e also has a strong inventory management aspect. And while this is interesting and quite fun in play - eg it's the only RPG I've ever played where so much turns on whether or not the PCs have shoes, and where wearing out your shoes hiking is a serious risk - I don't think this necessarily conduces to story.

This is a slightly different point. I'm not referring to inventory management here so much as I am to the acquisition and proportion of your power held in random loot

 

[Micah Sweet]

It requires a--particular--view to describe everything that was pulled out of RQ as "cruft". It may not suit everyone's needs, but that's no the same thing.

Yeah, I don't really buy the use of the word "streamlined" as having the implications of "better" I'm seeing here either, but everybody's got an opinion.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah, I don't really buy the use of the word "streamlined" as having the implications of "better" I'm seeing here either, but everybody's got an opinion.

You can occasionally get mechanical structures that have outlived their functions--there were a few 3e era prereq things that, far as I can tell, existed just to justify the attributes themselves rather than just their modifiers existing--that can go without changing anything meaningful, but that's where it has to go usually--calculations that are using components that could just as easily be baked into the formula from the start.

 

[soviet]

I'm just spit-balling here, but maybe we could even come up with some labels for these different things. Like maybe the first could be labelled "neo-trad" (especially if the Bob's player has a lot of say over the scene content) or "high concept sim" (if it's the GM who has a lot of say over the scene content).

Maybe the first could be labelled "story now", because it's in the "now" of play that the story stuff crystallises and explodes (if you'll forgive the mixing of metaphors).

The last one seems to cover a few possibilities, but maybe we could distinguish "exploration-of-setting-and-situation" play, where the players who control those characters are mostly there to learn about the setting and its elements, by dint of seeing what happens when characters encounter those elements as obstacles or challenges, and a similar but not identical sort of play where the thing the players care most about is beating to win against those obstacles or challenges - so the setting and its elements are more like an arena for play, than the raison d'etre of play; that raison d'etre is about "stepping up" to confront the challenges.

Just thinking out loud!

Yeah it occurred to me afterwards that I'd basically redescribed story before, story now, and story after, albeit my version of story before includes excessive stake setting/writers room type play as well as pre-scripting per se - sort of 'story just before' and 'story way before'.

 

[hawkeyefan]

So, in any RPG I've ever played, there will be long stretches of gameplay where the rules are not used. Yet RPG is still being played. Thus it is apparent that rules are not required for playing a RPG being possible. To me me this conclusion is obvious and irrefutable.

Who gets to say what and when… that’s a rule. So if the conversation that is the game is happening, then rules are being used.

 

[pemerton]

. I'm not referring to inventory management here so much as I am to the acquisition and proportion of your power held in random loot

I get that. My point is that the inventory management aspect, which takes up time and focus at the table, means there is quite a bit of time and focus at the table that is not about "story".

 

[GobHag]

The problem is I think there's a very wide range of things called "RPGs" some of which emphasize the game element strongly, some of which either minimize it or consider it a necessary evil at best (and a few I reserve the right to question whether are games in any meaningful way), and I think applying the term broadly to all of those is probably obfuscating discussion rather than enlightening it.

An issue impossible to solve when even video games have Visual Novels under it's umbrella. Not to mention that spaces own definition of RPGs

 

[Thomas Shey]

An issue impossible to solve when even video games have Visual Novels under it's umbrella. Not to mention that spaces own definition of RPGs

Fair. But I still think you need to stay aware of it when discussing what things like mechanics mean and how much they matter.