Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

[zakael19]

For Clocks, I may have more than one active as part of a Score… but I make sure they’re doing different things. So one Clock might be like the common “Alarm Raised” Clock… then I might have one that’s related to a specific PC. Maybe something like “Lose Contact” if they brought a friend along and the Score is more dangerous than expected. Something more specific to a single PC.

Yeah, a racing clock or whatever has its use at times; but just as a personal measure I tend to just use at a time and tie everything back to that one. Of course, teh fact that most of my FITD play has been a sci-fi setting with coms and other such mechanisms for cross-communication means that the play space tends to tie together!

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Uh. How many clocks do you have ticking? I'll generally have like. One? Linked to the current score. "Demon manifests" or "Alarm called in" or "Reinforcements arrive." The rest of the time my threats are pretty immediate. As @TwoSix that gives me that soft consequence + decision space for the players + pacing to reflect the rising fictional implications. It's a form of honesty - I'm not arbitrarily going "the guards show up!" I signaled that and you kept rolling.

Of the sort of clocks I am talking about, (So "the alarm is raised" or some such) there is usaully just one. Then most consequences would tick it, and then it usually is not filled.

Why would you avoid getting trauma? It's half the fun of the game... Once my Songs players realized that Scars were cool and awesome actually, they started a race to see who would get one first! There was genuine disappointment when one person finally won.

Because the rules present it as a bad thing to be avoided and there is gameplay tools for managing the stress so the players assume that they're supposed to do that? Or even if you think trauma is cool (and I do) you still need to gauge manage so that you actually get trauma from something dramatic and not just randomly from something mundane.

(IIRC, they made the trauma timing a bit less bonkers in Deep Cuts.)

Idk, clearly our experiences are so different either I'm just more aligned with the core systems / they're not a good fit for you, or the way they're showing up at your table isn't well execute, or some combination.

So, I said it earlier, that I assume that a lot of people to whom Blades works smoothly have imported quite a bit practices and assumptions that are not in the text. Like Apocalypse World is an older game with more rigidly defined moves and consequences, and I'd image coming from that to Blades would help one run it more effectively than coming from, say, D&D.

(not sure what "it" is in Deep Cuts, the "gauge management?" In DC, you get your stress back via Downtime in full, because you rack it up like crazy during the score. DC maximizes the focus on cost over any concern about failure; everything costs more)

In Deep Cuts the max stress you can get from resistance rolls is 3, in normal rules it is 5, so it is significantly easier to avoid accidentally filling the stress gauge that way.

 

[zakael19]

So, I said it earlier, that I assume that a lot of people to whom Blades works smoothly have imported quite a bit practices and assumptions that are not in the text. Like Apocalypse World is an older game with more rigidly defined moves and consequences, and I'd image coming from that to Blades would help one run it more effectively than coming from, say, D&D.

Nope, I went into blades etc with minimal narrative experience and actively ignored most of the advice I got from folks I saw around this site once I realized their play style and running mechanism varied greatly from what worked for me. A prolific poster on the subreddit and discord helped, but what really clicked things for me was watching Harper's 2019 videos (and then Deep Cuts' modules released and I was like "oh, this is what I really wanted!" turns out my preferred play style aligns quite a bit with where he is these days).

In fact, IMO as @Fenris-77 said a little while back, the much more defined structure of FITD games tends to be way easier for a lot of folks to grasp than PBTA play! It's even far more conventional looking in terms of "stuff on your sheet" (you've got these little Actions) + how it assumes a group of folk off doing Stuff together in a combined effort.

Then most consequences would tick it, and then it usually is not filled.

If there's plenty of cost along the way to make this happen, who cares? If there isn't you need a tougher set of obstacles to truly be fans of the scoundrels.

(and I do) you still need to gauge manage so that you actually get trauma from something dramatic and not just randomly from something mundane.

I dont understand. Everything we do in my game is cool? I never front a mundane threat. I even specifically point obstacles at PC priorities + backgrounds + beliefs + playbooks to highlight them. Do. Does your table not do that? Surely I'm not that unique?

 

[Fenris-77]

In Deep Cuts the max stress you can get from resistance rolls is 3, in normal rules it is 5, so it is significantly easier to avoid accidentally filling the stress gauge that way.

My man, that stress gauge is going to fill faster than you'd like regardless of which rules you are using.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yeah, you need to go with a variety of consequences, with Clocks being only one such option. You need complications and Harm and whatever else makes sense… spread things out.

For Clocks, I may have more than one active as part of a Score… but I make sure they’re doing different things. So one Clock might be like the common “Alarm Raised” Clock… then I might have one that’s related to a specific PC. Maybe something like “Lose Contact” if they brought a friend along and the Score is more dangerous than expected. Something more specific to a single PC.

So yeah… keep the in-Score Clocks to a minimum and try and keep them focused on different kinds of things.

Yeah, this makes sense to me (and I like that "lose contact" clock, good idea.) I feel the issue to me is that this game has been described to me as some sort of consequence rollercoaster where the consequences feed the fiction, keeping it fluid and dynamic, and a tick to some gauge that might matter later, or not, just is not that at all.

It sounds to me like the GM is using too many Clocks… perhaps even offloading things that should be immediate consequences to a Clock. If so, then the criticism definitely makes sense.

Do you think that’s the case?

I'm not sure they use more clocks than intended, but they certainly use them as a consequence far more often than I would prefer, and I've told them this. But I am not sure they're using them "wrong" per se, as I don't believe the rules are particularly specific in this regard.

 

[zakael19]

In Deep Cuts the max stress you can get from resistance rolls is 3, in normal rules it is 5, so it is significantly easier to avoid accidentally filling the stress gauge that way.

Oh yeah, sorry something between 30 and 40 sessions of DC play makes me forget some base stuff. The flip side is that there's a lot more stuff to Push Yourself to avoid usually! DC wants you to make Threats big, and often more than 1.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Nope, I went into blades etc with minimal narrative experience and actively ignored most of the advice I got from folks I saw around this site once I realized their play style and running mechanism varied greatly from what worked for me. A prolific poster on the subreddit and discord helped, but what really clicked things for me was watching Harper's 2019 videos (and then Deep Cuts' modules released and I was like "oh, this is what I really wanted!" turns out my preferred play style aligns quite a bit with where he is these days).

OK, interesting.

In fact, IMO as @Fenris-77 said a little while back, the much more defined structure of FITD games tends to be way easier for a lot of folks to grasp than PBTA play! It's even far more conventional looking in terms of "stuff on your sheet" (you've got these little Actions) + how it assumes a group of folk off doing Stuff together in a combined effort.

I think that the Apocalypse Word is so obviously structured completely differently than say, D&D and other more trad games, so it makes it clearer that it should be approached differently. But I don't know, I am just theorising.

If there's plenty of cost along the way to make this happen, who cares? If there isn't you need a tougher set of obstacles to truly be fans of the scoundrels.

Because the cost are boring mechanical stuff that are recovered with more boring mechanical stuff. Got stress, use downtime action to recover later, got heat, use reduce heat, got damage, use downtime to heal. And it can create tension, but it in itself does not create interesting fiction! It does not create a compelling story! (The topic of the thread!) That requires, events, plot twists etc, so consequences that create those are better for the story!

I dont understand. Everything we do in my game is cool? I never front a mundane threat. I even specifically point obstacles at PC priorities + backgrounds + beliefs + playbooks to highlight them. Do. Does your table not do that? Surely I'm not that unique?

Like you do not just roll prowl to sneak past a guard, trying to pick a lock silently, survey area for Bluecoats etc? How the system works if you roll to resist making noise when you try to silently sneak past someone you can be taken out of scene because you were so traumatised by it, and that is just ludicrous. Like my character go his trauma from from a scene where a person accidentally revealed that they were the one who had killed my character's parents years ago, and my character killed them in cold blood on the spot. That I think was more appropriate, and timing it so certainly was not an accident. The system does not differentiate between sneaking past a cook and fighting a person who murdered your parents, both can result a trauma just the same.

 

[zakael19]

Because the cost are boring mechanical stuff that are recovered with more boring mechanical stuff. Got stress, use downtime action to recover later, got heat, use reduce heat, got damage, use downtime to heal. And it can create tension, but it in itself does not create interesting fiction! It does not create a compelling story! (The topic of the thread!) That requires, events, plot twists etc, so consequences that create those are better for the story!

Disagree. We tend to have entire sessions of downtime scenes, room to breathe, develop the characters and relationships, see the city (or the locality for whatever game I'm playing) and its interplay, etc. Push Yourself (resist) rolls are awesome, we narrate through that to show how the PCs pull things out by teh skin of their teeth. Threats push the narrative to its limit.

I don't need "twists" or whatever to make any of that happen. The objectives of a score and the obstacles along the way, along with the themes that the players bring are plenty.

I mean. I'm fronting obstacles like: "you're being chased through a town by a hovering VTOL with its door guns deploying - what do you do? (that was a clock to get away!) A 6'5" female Skovlander opens the child's door and gazes down at you with a scowl "who are you?" What do you do? (the answer: babble "step on me mommy I mean uhh") You're dancing with Prince Juniper and you see Princess Rayann looking at you with hurt on her face, she clearly thinks you're snubbing her after all that, what do you do?

Like you do not just roll prowl to sneak past a guard, trying to pick a lock silently, survey area for Bluecoats etc? How the system works if you roll to resist making noise when you try to silently sneak past someone you can be taken out of scene because you were so traumatised by it, and that is just ludicrous.

No? Why would I do stuff that boring?

Edit: you might really benefit from teh Threat roll! The GM spends the game telegraphing Threats, and then you say how you overcome them!

 

[hawkeyefan]

So, I said it earlier, that I assume that a lot of people to whom Blades works smoothly have imported quite a bit practices and assumptions that are not in the text. Like Apocalypse World is an older game with more rigidly defined moves and consequences, and I'd image coming from that to Blades would help one run it more effectively than coming from, say, D&D.

Blades was the first game like this that I ran and I ran it before I played it. We went from 5e D&D to Blades.

I think coming from that mindset has more impact on how quickly my group and I took to the game.

I have since branched out and played many such games, and doing so has helped my GMing of Blades. So exposure to these kinds of games helps, I think, but the issue out of the gate tends to be approaching play from a more D&D mindset.

In other words, I think you have a point… but I think it’s more going in the other direction.

Yeah, this makes sense to me (and I like that "lose contact" clock, good idea.) I feel the issue to me is that this game has been described to me as some sort of consequence rollercoaster where the consequences feed the fiction, keeping it fluid and dynamic, and a tick to some gauge that might matter later, or not, just is not that at all.

Yeah, and in my experience, that’s how play tends to go. The fact that you’re describing it so much as “eh so what” when it comes to consequences says to me that the GM isn’t making consequences matter as much. You should feel those consequences beyond “I’ll Reduce Heat this time, guys”.

And I mean this both at the Score level of play and the Faction level of play.

I'm not sure they use more clocks than intended, but they certainly use them as a consequence far more often than I would prefer, and I've told them this. But I am not sure they're using them "wrong" per se, as I don't believe the rules are particularly specific in this regard.

I’m less interested in labeling something wrong than in understanding what’s happening in play and how to adjust to make play more enjoyable (assuming that’s a goal… I know you’ve said the game is pretty enjoyable, but it sounds like there’s room for improvement).

I think the GM should try and inflict more situational consequences. Use those to evolve the situation. Put the characters in bad spots where it’s not easy for them to get out unscathed. Pressure them in areas where their Action ratings aren’t the best. Hit them HARD and OFTEN so that they feel the need to Resist and use up their Stress.

If the Crew collectively has enough DTAs to address all their issues, or to easily spend some Coin to buy more without worry… then the pressure is not on them enough.

I mean it’s hard to make specific suggestions without a complete picture… but that’s the gist of it.

 

[zakael19]

A quick(ish!) example of how this plays out. First score of my BITD game, a crew of Radicals. We've established that they want to do a smash&grab at a prominent industrialist's house who's been funding strikebreaking. Goal: loot his safe to fund future operations, send a message by burning the place to the ground.

Approach: ...Subtle? Deception? I forget the exact thing, detail was the Spider finding out about a furniture delivery they could waylay and pretend to be while the master of the house is out - but they know their kid will be home. 6 on the roll, so we went right to entering the house; past the guard at the gate.

-> Gather Info roll to establish how they want to proceed, decide to brazen it out.
-> Obstacle, servants door opens and they need to get inside. Talked their way in via some deception stuff (Sway maybe?)
-> They want to warn the help, Gather Info roll to peek in the kitchen and see if there's any Skovlan staff. There is, they want to quietly warn them to be prepared to fleet.
-> Obstacle, the servant might sound the alarm! Bypassed by leaning on shared nationality and revenge against the bosses.
-> I think another Gather Info here to see what sort of non-servants they'd have to worry about? Ran into the butler, made their apologies.
-> Taking the delivery upstairs to the bedroom, one person starts to unpack demolition stuff to get into the locked study without bothering with the warded door.
-> Obstacle, butler ascends the stairs and starts poking around (lured him in, used some sort of chloroform type stuff?)
-> Broke through the wall, Slide goes off to find the kid and his nanny.
-> Obstacle, previously mentioned terrifyingly huge nanny ("can I get your number?"). Failed roll, he gets tossed out the window.
->Obstacle in the safe room, a ghost-ward around the safe + an alarm to the local Bluecoat station (Whisper did something with the warding, Leech got the safe open).
-> Set the firebomb, write the message on teh butler's body and get them outside.
-> Obstacle, the nanny jumping down child in her arms, and coming towards them ready to kick ass and take names (I think the Whisper summoned in a ghost to terrify her or something?)

Flee into the night, teh fire raging behind them.