Let's talk about "plot", "story", and "play to find out."

[hawkeyefan]

Of course the clock represents something in the fiction, but nothing of consequence happens in the fiction until it is filled. So then the gameplay becomes clock management. How many times we can afford to resist, what special armours we have, etc. Now there is gameplay there, but it is mechanical strategy, it is not volatile high stakes rollercoaster. And of course in many situations you can just bail out before the clock ever gets filled.

Sure… but Clocks shouldn’t be the only thing happening. The GM should be mixing things up with immediate consequences based on the fiction as well as maybe some long term consequences to go along with Clocks, Harm, and Heat.

I think heat is not great consequence either. It is not nothing, but it does not drive the action in the moment either. It is just minor annoyance for later, perhaps someone needs to spend a coin to use reduce heat. And I think clocks should not be any sort of default consequence, and offering them as such is a trap for new GMs.

Right, but I was suggesting Heat as a kind of safety net. Harm too, though Harm is the more immediate of the two. If the GM can’t come up with something immediate based on the fiction, or there’s no relevant Clock, and Harm doesn’t make sense… Heat is a decent last option.

As for Clocks… I don’t think it’s a trap for new GMs at all. I wish there was more and better guidance in the books on how best to use Clocks. Especially more ling term ones.

But ultimately, if all consequences just make the player shrug and say “oh well, I’ll just spend some coin to deal with that” then none of them matter. In such a case, the GM isn’t putting anywhere near enough pressure on the Crew.

 

[zakael19]

Set aside single action resolution. Players have a goal related to the current score; how best do they achieve it? What's the minimum number of resources they could spend to get there? Taken from that perspective, the ideal state is to offload as many consequences to score specific clocks, and then tick them just short of completion before the score is done, thus avoiding any lasting consequence to be dealt with later, or other resource expenditure.

That's what @Crimson Longinus is driving at; there is a strategic case that is at odds with the best intended experience of the game. Is there some way to avoid that, mechanically?

Yes,there is a way to avoid that mechanically, but at some point I'm getting into "explain the entirety of BITD's rules" which gets a little tiresome? Here's the link to the SRD's page on Consequences; here's the page on setting Position and Effect.

But unless that clock gets filled, nothing of consequence actually happens in the fiction because of it.

This is quite literally false if played according to the book, at least for those which track some sort of concrete progress against an outcome. The GM is exhorted again and again to link consequence clocks to the fiction. Indeed, the name of a clock should be loose and support that. Each time you create and progress a clock, the players should experience something corresponding in the fiction that signals that: you describe the guards getting tense and chatting back and forth; a faction's progress hits the news or rumors in the district; & etc.

To quote from Harper's intent:

It’s good to have a danger clock on the table for an overriding threat (the Bluecoats are called, the scoundrels are exposed, they’re caught in the act, driven off, etc.). Ticking a clock is a “softer” threat than harm or immediate trouble. It shows the competence of the scoundrels — they don’t ruin everything with one bad roll.

I think heat is not great consequence either. It is not nothing, but it does not drive the action in the moment either. It is just minor annoyance for later, perhaps someone needs to spend a coin to use reduce heat. And I think clocks should not be any sort of default consequence, and offering them as such is a trap for new GMs.

Respectfully: disliking the way many of the intentional mechanisms a game uses to drive its play suggests that perhaps either they're not being used well in your experiences, or they're just not a good fit for you. I recognized too many things I didn't like about 5e, checked to ensure it wasn't me misunderstanding the rules, and moved on.

Heat is adjudicated at the outcome of scores unless you bring it in on a Devil's Bargain - and directly drives the Entanglements which come from the Score. Immediately following it, as you're figuring out how much Heat the score brought to bear. Like.

 

[Fenris-77]

The 'fiction' is what matters, not the clocks used to track it.

 

[zakael19]

The 'fiction' is what matters, not the clocks used to track it.

But I can't get any more fiction into my fiction first gameplay, I had to unload it all to clocks!

 

[Fenris-77]

But I can't get any more fiction into my fiction first gameplay, I had to unload it all to clocks!

I have a whole bag of fiction here, just for you! BAM...

 

[zakael19]

I have a whole bag of fiction here, just for you! BAM...

Ohhh nooo, my cloooccckkkssssssss

 

[TwoSix]

Ohhh nooo, my cloooccckkkssssssss

My clocks all bring the guards to the yard.

 

[Fenris-77]

My clocks all bring the guards to the yard.

My clocks are better than yours, so I'm pretty sure that the guard filled yard you describe is actually mine rather than yours.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Yes,there is a way to avoid that mechanically, but at some point I'm getting into "explain the entirety of BITD's rules" which gets a little tiresome? Here's the link to the SRD's page on Consequences; here's the page on setting Position and Effect.



This is quite literally false if played according to the book, at least for those which track some sort of concrete progress against an outcome. The GM is exhorted again and again to link consequence clocks to the fiction. Indeed, the name of a clock should be loose and support that. Each time you create and progress a clock, the players should experience something corresponding in the fiction that signals that: you describe the guards getting tense and chatting back and forth; a faction's progress hits the news or rumors in the district; & etc.

Yes, of course, but it still is just flavour unless it actually impacts something and it really doesn't unless the clock is filled.

To quote from Harper's intent:

And I think that is questionable advice as it keeps the situation static and passive.

Respectfully: disliking the way many of the intentional mechanisms a game uses to drive its play suggests that perhaps either they're not being used well in your experiences, or they're just not a good fit for you. I recognized too many things I didn't like about 5e, checked to ensure it wasn't me misunderstanding the rules, and moved on.

I mean sure, there are several areas of the game I don't like. I think I like the idea of the game, but I don't like several aspects of the execution. And frankly, some of these thinks I believe to be just objectively dodgy design, as they incentivise gameplay that goes against the stated intended feel of the game.

Heat is adjudicated at the outcome of scores unless you bring it in on a Devil's Bargain - and directly drives the Entanglements which come from the Score. Immediately following it, as you're figuring out how much Heat the score brought to bear. Like.

Yes, heat has more teeth, but it still is not something that drives the fiction at the moment.

Like I don't understand how this is so hard or controversial: a consequence creating an interesting plot twist or an event the players have to react right now creates more engaging and dynamic gameplay than some tick on some gauge that might or might not matter later. Do people genuinely disagree with this?

 

[TwoSix]

My clocks are better than yours, so I'm pretty sure that the guard filled yard you describe is actually mine rather than yours.

Dang. I would Heat you, but I’d have to charge.