When Player Driven Adventures Don't Pan Out

[zarionofarabel]

I find the assertion that most characters in media are reactive. I have watched and read numerous stories about protagonists that are very proactive. Heck, basically the entirety of the "heist" genre is not just proactive on the motivation front, but on the particular minutiae of every step of said heist. If you think that protagonists in media are almost always reactive your sources must come from a very narrow and curated subset of media in general.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I find the assertion that most characters in media are reactive. I have watched and read numerous stories about protagonists that are very proactive. Heck, basically the entirety of the "heist" genre is not just proactive on the motivation front, but on the particular minutiae of every step of said heist. If you think that protagonists in media are almost always reactive your sources must come from a very narrow and curated subset of media in general.

The heist genre is a pretty narrow slice of "all media" though, you have to admit.

 

[zakael19]

So here's how the Monster bundles work. There's a theme. The book has the following examples: Age of Giants, Arch-Devil's Retribution, Confrontation of Titans, Cult of Rot, and 12 more. Each bundle has monsters that go together and there's a frame story around what they are doing. Then it says, if your group is Tier 1 when you stumble into this plot - these are the enemies you face. If you're Tier 2, THESE are the enemies you face. Up to Tier 4. But here's where things get AWESOME. As the GM you pick 3 bundles. The players can only deal with one at a time. So if they pick bundle A, bundles B and C proceed to their Tier 2 plots. (it's a living world! You didn't deal with some threats so now they're bigger!!). You repeat that again - the players can deal with B or C. C goes to the Tier 3 plot. So there are consequences to their choices. It's player driven, but there's always some bad guys doing bad guy stuff to motivate them to action.

Sounds like they took good notes from the best 4e (and one of the best monster books of all time) book MV: Threats to the Nentir Vale, and added their own spin! Very cool. I noticed a lot of forward-porting of 4e high notes into ToV in general.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Trying to force player-driven is a recipe for frustration. Player driven is still, in my experience, facilitated by the GM laying out at least a faint outline and options of some rough trails that the players can drive their UTVs over rather than just literally anything goes.

While I agree with you that trying to force a game to be player-driven can be disastrous, I disagree that actual player-driven play needs a “GM laying out at least a faint outline and options of some rough trails”.

It’s absolutely possible for the players to actually drive play.

 

[zakael19]

While I agree with you that trying to force a game to be player-driven can be disastrous, I disagree that actual player-driven play needs a “GM laying out at least a faint outline and options of some rough trails”.

It’s absolutely possible for the players to actually drive play.

Can you provide some examples of flat player-drive play where the GM is not providing some sort of outline / actualizing a premise that spurs action / fronting opportunities?

All the "player-driven" games I run still start with the GM fronting something (even if its based on/in reaction to session 0 style setup from the players).

 

[Desdichado]

While I agree with you that trying to force a game to be player-driven can be disastrous, I disagree that actual player-driven play needs a “GM laying out at least a faint outline and options of some rough trails”.

It’s absolutely possible for the players to actually drive play.

It's technically possible. In theory. I'm not convinced that it's actually feasible for all but the most unusual and unusually rare of gamers.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Can you provide some examples of flat player-drive play where the GM is not providing some sort of outline / actualizing a premise that spurs action / fronting opportunities?

All the "player-driven" games I run still start with the GM fronting something (even if its based on/in reaction to session 0 style setup from the players).

Well, I think that actualizing a premise is a bit different than a GM providing an outline or trails.

The premise could easily be the players’. The GM may then take that premise and help actualize it in some way.

In the first Blades in the Dark game I ran, I suggested the first Score to my players. They were Hawkers and they received a large stash of a really potent and high-quality drug. The Score was for them to transport it from a warehouse in Gaddoc Station to their turf in Nightmarket.

Now you might say that I provided an outline for play by doing this… but, it was based on what the players established during their character and crew creation. In developing their crew, they chose the special ability “The Good Stuff”, which means they are known for the quality of their goods. We determined that this was a highly psychoactive electroplasmic drug called Third Eye. In choosing friends, enemies, and upgrades for the crew, we determined that their lair in the guest house of a derelict mansion in Six Towers had a lab, furnished with equipment stolen from the Sparkwrights. The plan was for the crew’s Leech to take a sample of the Third Eye and learn how to make more.

We also determined during crew creation that the crew’s territory was a small parlor in Nightmarket. It was given to them by the Crows and was taken from the Red Sashes, who’d failed to do much with the area and who were causing trouble with rival gang the Lampblacks… so the Crows punished them and took the parlor away. So needless to say, the Red Sashes were annoyed by that.

So… the opening Score really amounted to me taking what the players came up with and presenting a likely first step. It wasn’t really me presenting potential trails or an outline of progression. It was me taking what they made, and picking a logical first step. It’s not something I ever would have presented as an opening Score if the players hadn’t made the choices they did, and if we didn’t come up with the fiction to match those choices.

This is the first example I thought of… I can offer others if needed!

 

[zarionofarabel]

The heist genre is a pretty narrow slice of "all media" though, you have to admit.

I did not indicate that the heist genre was in any way "all media" in it's entirety. I was simply pointing out that the heist genre is famous for featuring proactive protagonists. I was just pointing out that in order to claim that most protagonists are reactive, you must look at a narrow slice of available media, as proactive protagonists are very much a major aspect of media in it's entirety.

 

[zakael19]

Well, I think that actualizing a premise is a bit different than a GM providing an outline or trails.

I don't think "Provide an Opportunity" is really all that different, yeah? Maybe if the players have 0 input, sure. But when I kicked off an OSR game for instance we agreed on how the players wanted to start the game, the initial impetus for their characters, and then I offered some opportunities (dungeon rumors) to choose from. They coalesced around one and that started play.

Of course in something like Blades the mechanics of the game are doing a lot of heavy lifting, but IME the GM is still helping shape the possibility space. The players decide their friends/enemies in creation, the GM is going to establish how that constrains or expands play. The players have a hunting grounds / preferred score / whatever, which all helps channel stuff (that "outline") in a way a conventional game may not, but it's still a conversation.

 

[hawkeyefan]

I don't think "Provide an Opportunity" is really all that different, yeah? Maybe if the players have 0 input, sure. But when I kicked off an OSR game for instance we agreed on how the players wanted to start the game, the initial impetus for their characters, and then I offered some opportunities (dungeon rumors) to choose from. They coalesced around one and that started play.

Of course in something like Blades the mechanics of the game are doing a lot of heavy lifting, but IME the GM is still helping shape the possibility space. The players decide their friends/enemies in creation, the GM is going to establish how that constrains or expands play. The players have a hunting grounds / preferred score / whatever, which all helps channel stuff (that "outline") in a way a conventional game may not, but it's still a conversation.

I think it depends. I read the bit I quoted by @Desdichado as being more of an ongoing thing. Trails meaning not just a starting point, but a continuing path or road. Outlines in not just an introduction, but also an ongoing structure of sorts.

And I also think it’s different to offer an opportunity generally, and offering an opportunity based on feedback.