A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[UltimaGabe]

So, I've been messing around with the free trial of the Character Builder from WotC, and I'm building a fighter. I'm looking at some of the abilities they've snagged from Martial Power, and I have to say, when compared to the PHB abilities, there's a HUGE creep in power.

First- Battlerage Vigor. It's a Fighter Talent, in addition to Tempest Technique, introduced in Martial Power. Battlerage Vigor makes it so that any time you get hit with a melee or close attack, you gain temporary hit points equal to your constitution modifier. It's got some other abilities too- like gaining MORE temporary hit points if you hit with an attack with the invigorating keyword, and if you wear light armor or chainmail, you gain extra damage when you have temporary hit points.

All this, compared to a +1 to one-handed or two-handed weapons (which were the only two fighter talents in the PHB).

Hmm... that seems... balanced? Oh, wait, that's right. No, it doesn't. You mean to tell me that I can either choose to get a +1 to attack with most weapons, or I can choose to take ~2-4 points off of EVERY ATTACK I would normally worry about? Sure, there's ranged attacks and spells and such to worry about, but in that case, I'd be getting no benefit from one-handed or two-handed weapon talent either. And this is in addition to a damage bonus, and so on.

How does that even begin to be balanced?

Another ability that bothers me (although a bit less) is the Shield Bash encounter power. You get your Strength +2 (so it's more accurate than a normal attack) to do 1d10 damage (more base damage than any one-handed non-superior weapon, if I'm not mistaken) plus your strength modifier, PLUS the target is knocked back a square, AND the target is knocked prone. Oh! And if you're a dwarf, you deal EXTRA damage equal to your Wisdom modifier, as a bonus.

Compare this to Spinning Sweep, which is 1[W] damage + strength modifier, and the target is knocked prone. That's all.

The only requirement is that you have to be wearing a shield. But honestly, is that such a big requirement?

I mean, honestly, none of these will be game-breaking. Heck, they're actually pretty good for a defender-type class. But why would anyone choose a +1 to attacks with some weapons over (effective) permanent damage reduction vs. melee weapons? Or why would someone choose an ability that knocks someone prone over an ability that pushes someone, deals a boatload of extra damage, AND knocks them prone? After how WotC screwed up so much of 3e and then 3.5, how can they not have learned from their mistakes? Haven't they figured out it's not a good idea to have every single book that comes out be just a little bit more powerful than the book before it?

 

[twilsemail]

Another ability that bothers me (although a bit less) is the Shield Bash encounter power. You get your Strength +2 (so it's more accurate than a normal attack) to do 1d10 damage (more base damage than any one-handed non-superior weapon, if I'm not mistaken) plus your strength modifier, PLUS the target is knocked back a square, AND the target is knocked prone. Oh! And if you're a dwarf, you deal EXTRA damage equal to your Wisdom modifier, as a bonus.

Note: Shield Bash is lacking the Weapon keyword. You don't get your proficiency bonus of +2 or +3 and you don't get your weapons enhancement modifiers. You also don't get any other effects granted by your weapon. this lack of accuracy and effect makes up for the extra inherent effects in the power, IMO.

Compare this to Spinning Sweep, which is 1[W] damage + strength modifier, and the target is knocked prone. That's all.

The only requirement is that you have to be wearing a shield. But honestly, is that such a big requirement?

To the best of my knowledge Spinning Sweep is a 2H power (they're generally broken down between 1H and 2H...). You should be hitting someone with a zweihander or something of the like, that should make a difference.

I'm not going to try to defend Battlerage Vigor. I can't stand it.

There are powers in MP that I think went OTT, I just don't think Shield Bash is one of them. Compare Lasting Threat (Lvl 1 Daily MP) to Brute Strike (Lvl 1 Daily PHB).

 

[Alabast]

Battlerager vigor only takes affect after you take damage, so technically it doesn't reduce damage, it reduces the damage of future attacks, a not unimportant distinction.

The PHB fighter class feature is effectively a +1 to EVERY ATTACK YOU WILL EVER MAKE. This is very, very good, as individual attack bonuses are harder to come by in 4e, and Monster defense remains balanced against you throughout your career, unlike in previous editions (not to mention the fact that battleragers are encouraged to uses weapons that give only the +2 prof bonus to attack).

Also, if a battlerager wants a bonus to damage, they will need they need those extra hit points, since their defense will be lower.

Sure, there's ranged attacks and spells and such to worry about, but in that case, I'd be getting no benefit from one-handed or two-handed weapon talent either.

This is entirely untrue. The fighter would be getting his benefit for weapon talent every round he makes an attack. Whether or not he is attacking an enemy that is attacking him with ranged or area power is irrelevant.

The battlerager plays differently than the PHB fighter types, as he has more "eye-opening" bonuses that don't always come into play, while the PHB fighter his a very good, but easy to overlook, bonus that always applies. It is impossible to get a strict statistical comparison of the two, but they seem balanced to me, albeit they suit different play styles.

As for Shield Bash, I would be more likely to argue that Spinning Sweep is, in fact, somewhat underpowered. I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't comment on Shield Bash.

 

[Alabast]

I just read what Twilsemail wrote about Shield bash, and if what he said is true, he is 100% correct.

 

[Mengu]

But why would anyone choose a +1 to attacks with some weapons over (effective) permanent damage reduction vs. melee weapons?

Welcome to the club. I didn't have to test it to see how off the wall a high con battlerage vigor fighter could be before I decided to disallow it in my games. But for kicks, I did play test it, and saw it in action, to confirm my dislike of the potency of this class feature.

Or why would someone choose an ability that knocks someone prone over an ability that pushes someone, deals a boatload of extra damage, AND knocks them prone?

Just remember it's not a weapon power, so until you get a +3 weapon, you are correct. If you have a shield and are a dwarf, one power is certainly better than the other. But there are examples of such powers purely in the PHB, no need to go anywhere else, so some small differences in potency are to be expected. This isn't near as bad as battlerager or tempest with double weapons.

 

[Obryn]

As far as I'm concerned, the three best kinds of fighters right now are...

(1) 1H Weapon + Shield, using Weapon Talent
(2) Tempest w/ Double Weapon
(3) BRV

I haven't run a game with a BRV fighter, but it does make me nervous. Not nervous enough to ban it outright, but it's certainly on my watch list. I'd warn a player using one that they might need to remake their character later.

Tempest seems perfectly good to me if you disallow double weapons (or modify them slightly).

I still think weapon + shield is a perfectly viable combo, not at all overshadowed by BRV or Tempest. They just do different things.

About the only build that gets shafted is the 2H Weapon Talent fighter, IMHO. BRV fighters are generally superior to them, can do more damage, and have temp HPs to make their low AC livable.

-O

 

[Mengu]

I still think weapon + shield is a perfectly viable combo, not at all overshadowed by BRV or Tempest. They just do different things.

Ah, but there is more than one way to skin a cat... You can very easily build a BRV fighter who uses a sword and shield, and wears plate, that can outshine the weapon talent fighter with superior defense, which supposedly is the strength of the Guardian Fighter build.

 

[Maleketh]

Ah, but there is more than one way to skin a cat... You can very easily build a BRV fighter who uses a sword and shield, and wears plate, that can outshine the weapon talent fighter with superior defense, which supposedly is the strength of the Guardian Fighter build.

The fighter in my game did this - he wanted to respec his character, which I said was fine since he didn't like his old build. After taking 12 points of temporary HP damage (in other words, effectively shrugging off 12 points of damage) at level 2, we both realized how ridiculous the feature was, especially considering that he was hardly optimized for the feature.

Without serious modification, there's no way I'll be allowing BRV in my games.

 

[FadedC]

I think the problem isn't so much battlerager's vigor on it's own. I mean it is a very powerful ability and almost certainly better then +1 to hit (given that as mengu says your sill free to wear plate and use a shield). But by it's self it's still not horribly unreasonable as there is only so high you can get your con without hurting your offence.

The thing that makes BRV crazy though are the feats and brash attack. With feats a 2nd level dwarven battle rager (16 str, 18 con) can easily get 7 temporary hit points per attack, making him far harder to kill then any other defender. With brash attack that same battle rager can more then make up for lowering his strength to take a high con and in some cases may be able to do striker level damage.

If I were to allow BRV in my campaign I'd pretty much need a minimum of 2 rules.

1) No feats that boost it, or at least not until paragon
2) You must wear chain mail or light armor to gain the benefits (that way you give up ac as well as hit bonus)

Still not sure what if anything to do with brash strike there.

 

[Dan'L]

A note about Weapon Talent and ranged combat: Correct me if I'm wrong, but there isn't a melee restriction on the +1 to attack. So, a 2-Handed WTF with a longbow can at least hurt the enemy snipers back in an effective manner, while the BRV will just rage in his impotence to do anything but take damage while forced to try and close the distance -- particularly difficult against aerial assailants or enemies across a big pit or ravine.

Ah, but there is more than one way to skin a cat... You can very easily build a BRV fighter who uses a sword and shield, and wears plate, that can outshine the weapon talent fighter with superior defense, which supposedly is the strength of the Guardian Fighter build.

Yes, you'd be very hard to bring down, but the 1-Handed WTF would do more damage, because it was hitting more often and the extra damage benefits from the BRV build would be nullified by the Plate Mail. Not so much outshining, but taking a different approach to the class role.