A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[dvvega]

I may be misunderstanding my reading of Temporary Hit Points and Battle Rage Vigor, however:

You cannot gain stacking Temporary Hit Points from different sources. Every weapon attack would be a different source.

Confirming my interpretation is the second part of the BRV class ability that states that Invigorating keyword powers allow you to add temporary hit points from the power to your current temporary hit point score thus creating an exception to the standard. The first part does not include this exception.

Thus to get "a lot" of temporary hit points you have to use Invigorating powers once per turn.

So with a Con modifier of +6 or so, you can certainly gain 12 hit temporary hit points in the first round but then only 6 per round after that since the different source rule would halt the regain of the initial 6 based on a weapon attack against you.

In addition that +6 modifier is around 8th level without items. At that level monsters will chew through the 12 hit points pretty quickly. It is just a level of protection the BRV fighter has and it suits the Defender role well. Look at a Hobgoblin Hand of Bane (8th level monster) and tell me that 12 hit points is going to make him invincible.

Of course if no one hits him and he uses his At Will Invigorating power (which does only standard damage) then sure he is going to tank his hit points. However his party members will most likely be dead.

D

 

[Moon-Lancer]

if people think +1 to hit is balanced against brv, i suggest that all defending and boss like monsters give up +1 to hit in exchange for brv.

I would hazard a guess that players wouldn't touch that with a +6 pollarm

 

[DonAdam]

I've never thrown my hat into a BRV debate, but having watched them for several months, I just think the defenses of it that are always made are incredibly weak. Yes, you can adjust by using more ranged attackers. But one class ability that nerfs half the encounter types just isn't cool. And what's even less cool is an ability that either decides the fight or is largely useless.

Tempest fighters, too, are way too good at damage dealing with marked scourge and pit fighter out there.

But my biggest problem with the two MP fighter builds is that they so clearly step on the toes of other classes: BRV on the Barbarian, Tempest on the Ranger. In trying to make the fighter good at those things, they've made the fighter as good or better at the classes for whom it is their schtick, and with all the benefits of being a fighter to boot.

 

[FadedC]

I may be misunderstanding my reading of Temporary Hit Points and Battle Rage Vigor, however:

You cannot gain stacking Temporary Hit Points from different sources. Every weapon attack would be a different source.

Confirming my interpretation is the second part of the BRV class ability that states that Invigorating keyword powers allow you to add temporary hit points from the power to your current temporary hit point score thus creating an exception to the standard. The first part does not include this exception.

Thus to get "a lot" of temporary hit points you have to use Invigorating powers once per turn.

So with a Con modifier of +6 or so, you can certainly gain 12 hit temporary hit points in the first round but then only 6 per round after that since the different source rule would halt the regain of the initial 6 based on a weapon attack against you.

In addition that +6 modifier is around 8th level without items. At that level monsters will chew through the 12 hit points pretty quickly. It is just a level of protection the BRV fighter has and it suits the Defender role well. Look at a Hobgoblin Hand of Bane (8th level monster) and tell me that 12 hit points is going to make him invincible.

Of course if no one hits him and he uses his At Will Invigorating power (which does only standard damage) then sure he is going to tank his hit points. However his party members will most likely be dead.

D

Well first off with feats you can have +6 or even +7 at first level, and by 8th you could potentially be as high as +10 (although +8 is probably a more realistic number).

Secondly what makes the battle rager powerful is not his ability to stack up massive temporary hit point totals, but his ability to gain temporary hit points every time he is hit. Let's look at that hobgoblin hand of bane in your example. His basic attack only does 10.5 damage on an average hit. If he's attacking a target who gains 10 temporary hit points ( or even if he only gains 8) every time he hits it, it will take him a very, very long time to kill it.

 

[Evilhalfling]

I penalized the BRV fighter by removing his wis bonus on OA's and disallowed the dwarf paragon BRV feat. Not sure if this is truly in balance, but at least there is a higher cost for it.
I think Lasting Mark was just designed to be an upgrade of Brute Strike, which in most cases is the weakest of the fighter dailies.

 

[Istar]

I just read what Twilsemail wrote about Shield bash, and if what he said is true, he is 100% correct.

If what you say is true I reckon you are 100% correct as well

 

[Regicide]

After how WotC screwed up so much of 3e and then 3.5, how can they not have learned from their mistakes? Haven't they figured out it's not a good idea to have every single book that comes out be just a little bit more powerful than the book before it?

They learned, which is why they're going to keep doing it. It sells books. From Forgotten Realms Players Guide to AV to Martial Compendium the power has crept up *significantly* with each. Claiming balance as a goal was nothing more than a marketing tactic. That worked.

 

[dvvega]

@FadedC
But that is just the point, you cannot stack temporary hit points EXCEPT with Invigorating powers which are exceptions to the rule as per BRV. Normal temporary hit points do not stack.

Unless I've read it incorrectly.

D

 

[CapnZapp]

I just read what Twilsemail wrote about Shield bash, and if what he said is true, he is 100% correct.

If what you say is true I reckon you are 100% correct as well

I believe you are both completely accurate.

Provided you are 100% right, that is.

 

[Bolongo]

The BRV makes Temp HP more of a headache than before, but some of it is down to interpretation.

Pre-MP it was rather simple. THP never stacked, so whenever you gained THP and already had some, you simply asked which was the higher number: your old ones or the new ones, and that became you new THP total.

Now the BRV Fighter has to keep track of two pools of THP. The first one works as before, and includes THP gained from the first part of the class feature (i.e. being hit) and from any powers or other sources that don't have the Invigorating keyword. So if, for example, your 18 Con fighter is hit in round 1 and gains 4 THP from that, then gets hit again in round 2 by a weak attack that only does 2 damage, he does not end up with 6 THP, this pool is simply "topped up" at 4 again. And if he used a power like Unstoppable and ended up with a lot more than 4 THP, then this class feature would not come into play at all until the pool was brought below 4.

However, this same character can get another 4 THP each round he hits with an Invigorating power, and these have to be kept track of in a separate pool, since per the second class feature, they stack with any other THP. Now, the keyword limits this to happening once per turn, but a really literal reading of the class feature would let them stack with each other. It says "stack with any other temporary hit points you already have", without specifying that they need to be from another source.

As DM, I would quickly nip this in the bud and make the ruling that you can't accumulate THP in this pool, but that it also tops off at 4.

What I'm less certain of is the situation where the BR Fighter has 4+4 THP and is hit for less than 8. Which pool/s do you subtract the damge from? I think I would let the player choose, because that puts a tactical decision in the player's hands.