A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[UngeheuerLich]

If you are concerned about balance, ban him...

if you think the only problem is that he still can use scale armor, just change the wording of BRV that all benefits cease to funktion if he uses armor heavier than chain... then suddenly you hit less ofen and get hit more often and np at all...

 

[Regicide]

But still banned in any games I run, because it steps on the barbarian's toes.

Hard for the battle rager to step on the toes of something that isn't even out yet. Sounds more like the barbarian is redundant and should have been made differently since IT is stepping on the battle rager's toes.

 

[Felon]

The invigorating THP being cumulative is not that strong at most levels against a balanced encounter as laid out in the DMG.

Since you've seen fit to say the same thing twice, I feel I should inform you that is not a very compelling statement.

Indeed, look at the DMG's encounter templates, I see many if not most do indeed play the BRV's strengths. That's because melee monsters handily outnumber ranged monsters.

 

[Felon]

Hard for the battle rager to step on the toes of something that isn't even out yet. Sounds more like the barbarian is redundant and should have been made differently since IT is stepping on the battle rager's toes.

Not to worry. When the barb steps on the BRV's toes, the BRV takes 1 point of damage and gains 20 temporary hit points.

I'm very grateful for this thread. I have a player who bought Martial Power and I've been wondering if I should ban it. After weighing both sides of the argument, the evidence is pretty overwhelmingly damning against the tempest fighter and BRV being balanced against the Weapon Talent fighter.

 

[urzafrank]

Not to worry. When the barb steps on the BRV's toes, the BRV takes 1 point of damage and gains 20 temporary hit points.

I'm very grateful for this thread. I have a player who bought Martial Power and I've been wondering if I should ban it. After weighing both sides of the argument, the evidence is pretty overwhelmingly damning against the tempest fighter and BRV being balanced against the Weapon Talent fighter.

The issue of the BRV has been discussed by a lot of people on forums all over the internet.
Most of the posts have been by poeple who have had a knee jerk reaction to the THP stuff. I have played a lot of 4ED (been playing at least 2 times a week since the summer).
Now in my play there has been two ways for the monsters to deal with defenders, Over load the defender with all of the attacks you can lay on his head so you can drop him or if you can ignore him and take down the strikers and/or the leaders ASAP. Now with the BRV fighters these tactics have to be altered just like it would be altered if you have more than one defender in the party.

To Donadam
The monsters do not want to attack the fighters. They want to attack the leaders and the strikers so if they can they never attack the defender

 

[Felon]

The issue of the BRV has been discussed by a lot of people on forums all over the internet.
Most of the posts have been by poeple who have had a knee jerk reaction to the THP stuff.

I don't see kneejerk reactions in this thread, but rather thorough comparisons and analysis. I appreciate both sides of the argument.

Now in my play there has been two ways for the monsters to deal with defenders, Over load the defender with all of the attacks you can lay on his head so you can drop him or if you can ignore him and take down the strikers and/or the leaders ASAP. Now with the BRV fighters these tactics have to be altered just like it would be altered if you have more than one defender in the party.

Bottom line: Weapon Talent isn't worth everything the BRV and Tempest get in exchange. It's power creep. If you don't want power creep, it's not a consolation to know that you can just keep knocking things up a notch to deal with it.

If I felt like the fighter was at a disadvantage to begin with, I'd be more open. But no class doing [W] damage has anything to complain about IMO. When Arcane Power comes out, I'll be hoping for some power creep to give the warlocks a boost.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I'm very grateful for this thread. I have a player who bought Martial Power and I've been wondering if I should ban it. After weighing both sides of the argument, the evidence is pretty overwhelmingly damning against the tempest fighter and BRV being balanced against the Weapon Talent fighter.

I have a fond spot in my heart for the tempest fighter since I like warriors who use dual weapons and like the option of having one who is a defender instead of a striker.

If you just ban the double weapons, most of the issues with the tempest fighter dissappear IMO and what he gets seems a fairer tradeoff for what he he has to give up.

I mean, a tempest fighter in chainmail using two short swords can do a wicked dual strike but now his AC is 2 points lower than a standard fighter and his [W] is a D6. You can wear a heavier armor to reduce the gap but you lose the damage bonus. You can use longsword/bastard sword but now you lose +1 to hit and maybe damage (if using chainmail). You can use a parrying dagger but now one of your weapon is +2 and does D4. Choices and sacrifices.

As long as you can't get the D8 or D10 damage dice, the +1 to AC, +1 to hit and +2 to damage all from the same damn weapon without having to make a single sacrifice, things are ok.

 

[Jack99]

Bottom line: Weapon Talent isn't worth everything the BRV and Tempest get in exchange. It's power creep. If you don't want power creep, it's not a consolation to know that you can just keep knocking things up a notch to deal with it.

Ban double weapons and tempest fighter is fine.

BRV fighter is a bit harder to fix (IMO). Been toying with the idea of just removing the temp hit points he gets when he is hit, but still need to see one in action before I consider it further.

 

[FadedC]

The tempest fighter seems like he's less of a problem because he's at least at least actually trading defence for damage (even if only a little). He may end up doing striker level damage, but at least unlike BRV he's not also invincible at the same time. So if his damage output turns out to be too high it's a simple matter of tweaking the numbers.

Edit: What is it about double weapons that makes tempest fighters so broken? I may have a wannabe tempest fighter coming into my campaign, so this would be good to know.

 

[Smeelbo]

I've not been focusing on fighters, although Dual Strike is obviously very good, but what struck me was Disheartening Strike. Unlike bonuses, penalties almost always stack, and stacking attack penalties on the bad guy seems very efficient.

Given that a decent halfling Artful Dodger can get +8 vs Opportunity Attacks, moving might as well be shifting, so after Sly Flourish, it seems that Disheartening Strike is a great choice for a second At-Will. For the classes I like best, Rogue and Ranger, none of the feats from Martial Powers lept out at me, either. For the Ranger, the various minor action, off-hand attacks seems very good, as does Spitting-Cobra Stance.

I would not ban Martial Powers for the very simple reason that you know your casters will demand Arcane Power and Divine Power, and you will not be able to deny them. The problems I have heard about so far, BRV Fighters and Beast Archer Rangers, all seem fixable. At minimum, the DM simply has to keep in mind not always playing to the characters' strengths, but also stressing their weaknesses.

Smeelbo