Tell me about medieval border fortresses, please!

As a follow up to who would be in the fort besides the soldiers:

Cooks, plus apprentice cooks
Blacksmiths – maybe one master blacksmith, several others to handle other specifics, as well as at least two apprentices for each blacksmith
Weaponsmiths – probably one for each type of melee weapon
Armourers – handles metallic armor
Leatherworkers/tanners – handles leather armor, boots, etc.
Engineers (and not just ones to man the artillery, to also handle castle maintenance – repair a damaged wall, etc)
Masons to do the actual repair – and you would also need other repair types to help out – roofers for buildings inside the fort, carpenters for any wood structures or items
Saddle repair folks
Horse handlers
Bowyers & fletchers for the bows and crossbows
Probably several clerks to keep track of the soldier’s pay, keep the records for the keep, etc.
Tailors & weavers to keep the regular clothing in good repair. Furriers if they are in a cold climate and need fur to keep warm.

As a follow-up, the soldiers themselves would be required to do the general maintenance of their arms and equipment – spit & polish stuff. But, any major repairs or servicing would go to the experts.

If you have access to the 1E DMG, it has some pretty good listing of NPCs.

Since Elves are involved, you're going to have to be able to defend yourself against magic.

I'd recommend having the most important parts of the castle underground. Since you have the spellcasters around who can accomplish it, it's a fairly simple matter to light the place with continual flame, and there are other spells that will make things more difficult for invaders that your 9th level cleric can put into place. From this underground base, the defenders need to be able to control the pass. Depending on how wide the pass is, this may mean having fortifications in the sides of the pass, or walls of some kind crossing it.

In the Real World (tm), most medieval castles, even along the borders, had much smaller garrisons than might be anticipated.

I know several of the castles along the Welsh border were commonly manned by about 20 soldiers, except in time of great need. Most of these castles were designed so that a garrison of 40-50 men could hold off large armies.

There were a series of tiny forts/castles/blockhouses along the Rhine and its tributaries that would commonly hold about 10 people all told, and that would be cramped quarters; same for several of the passes through the Swiss Alps.

The idea of having armies (much less fortifications) with tens of thousands of men doesn't really fit with most of the Middle Ages. After the fall of Rome armies shrank dramatically. Sure you have the Crusades, but most battles, until you get closer to the Hundred Years War (a fuzzy period -- counts as Renaissance in Italy, as the Middle Ages in France & England) that you get huge forces again, and even that is rare.

What size armies does this fort need to defend against? Are we talking thousands? Tens of thoudsands? Or maybe just hundreds at a time, if the Northern lands are a bunch of CE tribes without much unity among them.

A standard castle can probably hold up against a 10-to-one force. With excellent use of terrain (as in a mountain pass, where the enemy can only approach and attack the walls in a piecemeal fashion), this could easily climb up to 50-to-1 or more. I'm guesstimating these numbers, so if anyone knows enough about siege warfare to correct me, feel free... (Constantinople was 19-to-1, Alesia 7-to-1 or 2-to-1 depending on who you believe, Dros Delnoch was 50-to-1.)

So if in the past the laregest armies that have been repulsed by this fort have been around 10,000 men, then the fort should be able to hold at least around 200 combatants, plus support personnel. If attacks have been sparse or uncoordinated, it may carry a lot fewer than that.

Re: Re: Re: Tell me about medieval border fortresses, please!

Carnifex said:

Buttercup, how large a force is your fort meant to house?

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I'm waffling on this. I was thinking around 400, plus support personnel in a nearby village-within-a-cavern. But I could make it more. Probably as many as 600. You see, the fort is beyond the lands that the empire claims, and so the Unified Church pays all the costs associated with the fort. The church does this because they have a vested interest in keeping the worshipers of Pelnar out of their territory. The empire hasn't moved to expand its borders northward, because the emperor doesn't want to pay the upkeep. The empire just sort of peters out about 100 miles south of the fort. You could almost think of it as a DMZ, but that would be too official.

I'm attaching a map of the region. The largest invasion attempt was 10 years ago, and consisted of 5000 disorganized goblinoid troops. They might have actually won if they hadn't bogged down in fighting amongst themselves. Spies report that the elves have taken the goblinoid armies into their iron grip though, and are planning another invasion attempt. This one will not fall apart. Sir Vedris is worried.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Tell me about medieval border fortresses, please!

Buttercup said:

I'm waffling on this. I was thinking around 400, plus support personnel in a nearby village-within-a-cavern. But I could make it more. Probably as many as 600. You see, the fort is beyond the lands that the empire claims, and so the Unified Church pays all the costs associated with the fort. The church does this because they have a vested interest in keeping the worshipers of Pelnar out of their territory. The empire hasn't moved to expand its borders northward, because the emperor doesn't want to pay the upkeep. The empire just sort of peters out about 100 miles south of the fort. You could almost think of it as a DMZ, but that would be too official.

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as a refence look into castle like Acre in the crusades

Buttercup, your numbers seem to me to be on the light side. if I were the BBEG on the other side this small bastion would be overrun. you should have at least 1000 troops, more is better since most would only be 1st or second level if they rotated out regularly (say every 3-4 months). heavy cav is awlsome for clearing the gates since not much can stand in its path. griffon light air cav would also be good and usingf them for recon means you dont have to feed 'um. er rather pay to feed 'um.

If this is that last bastion then the village should be very close and walled. if its simply the last in a row of forts then the numbers could be smaller as long as aid could be counted on to arrive swiftly. remember that summoned earth elementals (at this level a real possibility) as well as giants could swiftly demolish a castles wall. so tose inside either need help close at hand or really strong defenses - perhaps both.

Sounds like you have some good ideas for this game. hope mine helped

Since the Unification Church is in paying for the fortress, they might go to the trouble of casting Forbiddance on the entrance or on the entry floor of the inner keep. Though expensive, it's a permanent duration spell and would have a dramatic effect on any siege. (Imagine if even half of an army (who would otherwise make it to the top of the wall/through the gate) failed their will saves and were prevented from climbing over the walls and suffered damage for simply trying. That would likely break the momentum of the attack and give the defenders a chance to counterattack. Considering the DCs involved in Forbiddance, it would probably be more like 80-90% of a goblin force that would fail their saves. That's very signifcant for the defenders of the castle).

Buttercup said:

I'm attaching a map of the region. The largest invasion attempt was 10 years ago, and consisted of 5000 disorganized goblinoid troops. They might have actually won if they hadn't bogged down in fighting amongst themselves. Spies report that the elves have taken the goblinoid armies into their iron grip though, and are planning another invasion attempt. This one will not fall apart. Sir Vedris is worried.

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A castle that could be taken by 5000 troops is small - tiny in fact - or else very poorly designed. Factor an historical castle giving the defenders between a 50:1 to 100:1 advantage. Well set up, with equal resources in terms of magic, sorcerors etc, this fort will not fall except to starvation - and then only if the attackers can get around behind it to cut off lines of supply.

The proposed invasion would be more frightening if the border fort is responsible for conducting patrols of several mountain passes. Then the defenders will be in the tension of staying safe behind their walls or doing their duty.

This would make for a very cool fantasy story - please tell us how the scenario goes when you run it.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Tell me about medieval border fortresses, please!

Buttercup said:

I'm waffling on this. I was thinking around 400, plus support personnel in a nearby village-within-a-cavern. But I could make it more. Probably as many as 600. You see, the fort is beyond the lands that the empire claims, and so the Unified Church pays all the costs associated with the fort. The church does this because they have a vested interest in keeping the worshipers of Pelnar out of their territory. The empire hasn't moved to expand its borders northward, because the emperor doesn't want to pay the upkeep. The empire just sort of peters out about 100 miles south of the fort. You could almost think of it as a DMZ, but that would be too official.

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As Conaill mentioned previously, a castle should be able to withstand about 10-to-1 odds. You mention 400-600 plus support personnel. We have a cleric 9th, a paladin 11th as the "major" defenders. I'd assume you'd have a handful or two of "lesser" spellcasters, probably 3-5 divine, possibly a couple of arcane, casters of levels 3-5 assisting with the defence. Further, that the largest enemy force of recent times was in the order of 5,000. Your defenders should be able to hold off virtually anything except a "death-or-glory" charge by the entire elf force.

Remember, unless the entire force assulting a castle is composed of fanatics, they're going to be falling apart, failing Will saves (or some other game mechanic that compensates for morale) - at least once they start being hit by the defenders. If they are a levied force, unless they are under the guns(?!?) of their officers many will be reluctant to put themselves in danger - and if you take Elder-Basilisk's suggestion, many will be UNABLE to attack successfully due to the presence of defensive spells such as Forbiddance and Hallow.

I know, this is D&D and not "real life" - but your force should be composed largely of support personnel and missile troops who have a secondary weapon should the walls be breached. Unless the attack is entirely unexpected, I'd suggest a garrison force in the order of 150-200 front-line soldiers (with a preponderance of crossbowmen or archers), their supporting spellcasters with the rest of the garrison being experts like siege miners, healers, tanners, metalsmiths, craftsmen etc. And, of course, non-combatants such as family members...

If the attack IS expected, double or even triple the number of defenders and get rid of as many non-combatants (like family members) as possible. The defenders will fight better knowing their "loved ones" are safe. Ensure the defenders have enough supplies, particularly water and medicines. A favourite siege tactic of the middle ages was to catapult a diseased corpse into a beseiged city and wait for disease to whittle away the defenders. The main army would sit and wait, while the miners would dig tunnels (and the defenders would counter-tunnel), hoping to collapse the walls. Actions would tend to be small-scale, with a small action when tunnels intersected.

Every person who remains must have at least rudimentary training in one weapon, whether it be a scythe or a spear, a sword or a crossbow. Better to keep it simple in this regard.

Any cavalry should likely be a small force of light cavalry, whose prime function would be as a messenger corps. Leave scouting to foot soldiers - maybe have a few rangers of levels 2-4, who can scout for and harass any enemies they see.

Sorry if this sounds a bit like a long rant!