Tell me about medieval border fortresses, please!
- Thread starter Buttercup
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Carnifex
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Re: Re: Tell me about medieval border fortresses, please!
Wow, a fortress designed to accomodate 40,000 people is going to be freaking huge, and a force that size would be a very large resource drain too if just kept in one place permanently.
Buttercup, how large a force is your fort meant to house?
Hackenslash said:
Hiya Buttercup,
I would recommend you reading a novell called "Legend" by David Gemmell, a British Born Author of Medieval Fantasy etc...Apart from the book being an excellent read, and a Best Seller, Mr Gemmell does a great job of describing a great border Fortress called "Dros Delnoch" including the inner workings and machinations of a living a breathing populous and garrison. The fortress was designed to accomodate 40,000 men plus supporting personel and living accomodation etc...but in the end they have to defend it against the Barbarian Hordes with only 10,000 men and most of them were poorly trained. Anyway Mr Gemmell does explain the reasons behind certain aspects and constructions of the Fortress and also describes in great detail how the fortress is supposed to be defended. Although the book focuses on the Heros of the story and their struggles to defend the Fortress against overwelming odds, it does give a marvelous insight on how to portray a Border Fortress. Hope this helps and enjoy the book if you read it...Cheers !!!
Wow, a fortress designed to accomodate 40,000 people is going to be freaking huge, and a force that size would be a very large resource drain too if just kept in one place permanently.
Buttercup, how large a force is your fort meant to house?
IRL, "Location, location, location!" would be paramount. Then, consider siegeworks and engineering. I'd consider engineers of far greater importance than cavalry, or how many men you can put on your bastion's walls. They allow you to utilise the terrain, and deny it to your enemy.
Three examples: (i) Constantinople was surrounded on three sides, and attacked by land and sea. It took an army of 150,000 Turks 54 days to storm Constantinople - which only had 8,000 defenders! This force included artillery (a D&D analogy would have to be to include a sorceror on the opposing side).
(ii) In ancient times, the Romans performed similar feats with siegeworks - on both sides of the equation. Their most celebrated siege would have to be Alesia, where the Romans erected an inward-facing siegeworks, firstly to keep Vercingetorix's tribesmen bottled up, and then an outward-facing ring of defences with a perimeter of eleven Roman miles (c. 16 kilometres long) that kept a relieving army out. The Romans had about 50,000 men in total, and defeated two armies totalling c. 350,000 men.
(iii) The Great Wall of China. Over 2,400 km long, stretching through the mountains and deserts of northern China. It was a project that linked a series of existing border forts and walls. Of course, I don't think a Paladin 11 and a cleric 9 are quite in the same league as Chin Shih Huang Ti, the megalomaniacal "First Emperor"
Still, I'd say the Great Wall would be a prime example of a border fort. Relatively small, but surrounded by similar small forces capable of mutual support in time of need.
Unfortunately I cannot name any good books on these subjects... but general research should point you in the right direction.
Three examples: (i) Constantinople was surrounded on three sides, and attacked by land and sea. It took an army of 150,000 Turks 54 days to storm Constantinople - which only had 8,000 defenders! This force included artillery (a D&D analogy would have to be to include a sorceror on the opposing side).
(ii) In ancient times, the Romans performed similar feats with siegeworks - on both sides of the equation. Their most celebrated siege would have to be Alesia, where the Romans erected an inward-facing siegeworks, firstly to keep Vercingetorix's tribesmen bottled up, and then an outward-facing ring of defences with a perimeter of eleven Roman miles (c. 16 kilometres long) that kept a relieving army out. The Romans had about 50,000 men in total, and defeated two armies totalling c. 350,000 men.
(iii) The Great Wall of China. Over 2,400 km long, stretching through the mountains and deserts of northern China. It was a project that linked a series of existing border forts and walls. Of course, I don't think a Paladin 11 and a cleric 9 are quite in the same league as Chin Shih Huang Ti, the megalomaniacal "First Emperor"
Still, I'd say the Great Wall would be a prime example of a border fort. Relatively small, but surrounded by similar small forces capable of mutual support in time of need.
Unfortunately I cannot name any good books on these subjects... but general research should point you in the right direction.
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Hackenslash
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Re: Re: Re: Tell me about medieval border fortresses, please!
Yeah, it is very large and actually at the beginning of the book has developed into a large town with all the killing ground between the walls overgrown with dwellings and other buildings. Of course they promptly have to tear all that down or the Fortress would not function properly and would give too much cover to the enemy, so there is a significant amount of preparation and support work going on at the beginning of the book, which is why I recommended it as the Author explains why they are doing what they are doing within the story. But my understanding of a Fortress is that it is supposed to be much bigger than a mere castle and this particular fortress is Awe inspireing with 7 Massive Walls(individually named and described for effect) guarding a mountain pass and also a large inner Keep. The Barbarian Hordes number 500,000 plus and they also have some seige engines too, so it is an awsome fight described in every detail and very gripping edge of your seat stuff. Enjoy !!
PS. The book is available in the USA(along with all his other novells) as I got a copy of it when I lived there about 2 years ago at a Borders Book Store, but I am sure it would be available at any other book store that stocks Fantasy and such. Cheers !!!
Carnifex said:
Yeah, it is very large and actually at the beginning of the book has developed into a large town with all the killing ground between the walls overgrown with dwellings and other buildings. Of course they promptly have to tear all that down or the Fortress would not function properly and would give too much cover to the enemy, so there is a significant amount of preparation and support work going on at the beginning of the book, which is why I recommended it as the Author explains why they are doing what they are doing within the story. But my understanding of a Fortress is that it is supposed to be much bigger than a mere castle and this particular fortress is Awe inspireing with 7 Massive Walls(individually named and described for effect) guarding a mountain pass and also a large inner Keep. The Barbarian Hordes number 500,000 plus and they also have some seige engines too, so it is an awsome fight described in every detail and very gripping edge of your seat stuff. Enjoy !!
PS. The book is available in the USA(along with all his other novells) as I got a copy of it when I lived there about 2 years ago at a Borders Book Store, but I am sure it would be available at any other book store that stocks Fantasy and such. Cheers !!!
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Crass said:Of course, I don't think a Paladin 11 and a cleric 9 are quite in the same league as Chin Shih Huang Ti, the megalomaniacal "First Emperor"
True. Now a couple of 20th level characters, that's something else entirely.
You and I are going to have to sit down and watch _Hero_ some time.
Carnifex said:
Romans were great for self-aggrandisement. Caesar estimated 80,000 infantry and 15,000 cavalry inside, and three times that outside, give or take a few thousand. I'd be inclined to think about a third of this, so I stand corrected
I SHOULD have posted "350,000 - allegedly!"However, they were still outnumbered by a considerable margin and were able to survive, largely, I believe, because of the efficacy of their siegeworks. After all, it's not for nothing that the Romans have been compared to an army of engineers!
Let us see a rough map of the area? As Hackenslash stated David Gemmel Waylander/Legend has a good concept but a low magic one.
Carnifex
First Post
Crass said:
Romans were great for self-aggrandisement. Caesar estimated 80,000 infantry and 15,000 cavalry inside, and three times that outside, give or take a few thousand. I'd be inclined to think about a third of this, so I stand corrected
However, they were still outnumbered by a considerable margin and were able to survive, largely, I believe, because of the efficacy of their siegeworks. After all, it's not for nothing that the Romans have been compared to an army of engineers!
Fair 'nuff
Well, since the leaders of the fortress are pretty high level, I am guessing they have magical means to communicate emergencies.
But, as the poster above stated, think of China before the Great Wall – a series of border forts that mutually support each other. Most likely, before the bad guys get to the border fort, there will most likely be either smaller border forts or watch/signal towers closer to the border. They will be crewed by a small staff of professional soldiers (probably rotated in fairly regularly, as it is dangerous) and a small support staff. They will have some means of signaling an enemy advance to the main border fort – along the lines of always prepared fast horses, some magical means, mirrors or fire or smoke signals. Probably at least 2 or 3 means in case of emergency. The watch towers will work in conjunction with scouts and patrols and serve as a temporary base of operations and place of rest. They are not designed for long term sieges – most likely just to hold out long enough to signal the main border fort, and then they withdraw back to the border fort, maybe triggering a well placed avalanche in the mountains to slow the bad guys down.
The actual border fort will most likely be in a very defensible area (hilltop surrounded by open ground, river ford) , and will also have means of contacting other forts in case they are besieged, as well as having a good supply of fresh food and clean water on hand. In addition to your ninth level cleric, they will also have a good amount of expert/commoner types with ranks in the Heal & Herbalism skills. This will be to help out in times of need & heavy casualties, as the high cleric and the other divine casters may not be enough to heal all the wounds in a hard attack (imagine a dragon swooping down, blasting a few walls with fire, knocking down some buildings inside the fort, then dropping a few boulders from a few thousand feet for good measure…scores of casualties, and probably too many for the divine casters to get to at once)
For every two active fighter/warrior types, I would have about one support person (cooks, blacksmiths, armorers, bowyers, fletchers, etc). This would not include any family members the soldiers have in the fort, as for a big attack, they might have the women & children withdraw farther back into the kingdom. If the soldiers are there for the long term (more than a year), they would need family there most likely. So, if you have 300 soldiers in the fort, I would say anywhere from 140-160 supporting personnel not including family. I would not have a lot of heavy cavalry, other than for the shock charge. Fast, light cavalry would be good for skirmishing and harassing the enemy flanks. Quick Muslim horse archers caused a lot of damage to heavily armored, slower Catholic crusaders in the Middle Ages – launch a few volleys of arrows and then retreat when the heavy knights charged, and pretty soon the heavily armored knights are exhausted. It might work well against disorganized orcs and goblins as well. Pepper them with arrows from the flanks, the orcs get mad and charge, the horses retreat quickly, then pepper the still charging orcs with a few more arrows, retreat a little more, etc.
I would have a mix of bowmen and crossbowmen on the walls, and in arrow towers. And, of course, catapults & ballistae. If it is a large enough fort, it could support a large trebuchet (think big stationary catapult) or mangonel as well.
The fort will also need to have enough size to support any local farmers that retreat to the fort in times of need, as well as the men from the watch towers...
But, as the poster above stated, think of China before the Great Wall – a series of border forts that mutually support each other. Most likely, before the bad guys get to the border fort, there will most likely be either smaller border forts or watch/signal towers closer to the border. They will be crewed by a small staff of professional soldiers (probably rotated in fairly regularly, as it is dangerous) and a small support staff. They will have some means of signaling an enemy advance to the main border fort – along the lines of always prepared fast horses, some magical means, mirrors or fire or smoke signals. Probably at least 2 or 3 means in case of emergency. The watch towers will work in conjunction with scouts and patrols and serve as a temporary base of operations and place of rest. They are not designed for long term sieges – most likely just to hold out long enough to signal the main border fort, and then they withdraw back to the border fort, maybe triggering a well placed avalanche in the mountains to slow the bad guys down.
The actual border fort will most likely be in a very defensible area (hilltop surrounded by open ground, river ford) , and will also have means of contacting other forts in case they are besieged, as well as having a good supply of fresh food and clean water on hand. In addition to your ninth level cleric, they will also have a good amount of expert/commoner types with ranks in the Heal & Herbalism skills. This will be to help out in times of need & heavy casualties, as the high cleric and the other divine casters may not be enough to heal all the wounds in a hard attack (imagine a dragon swooping down, blasting a few walls with fire, knocking down some buildings inside the fort, then dropping a few boulders from a few thousand feet for good measure…scores of casualties, and probably too many for the divine casters to get to at once)
For every two active fighter/warrior types, I would have about one support person (cooks, blacksmiths, armorers, bowyers, fletchers, etc). This would not include any family members the soldiers have in the fort, as for a big attack, they might have the women & children withdraw farther back into the kingdom. If the soldiers are there for the long term (more than a year), they would need family there most likely. So, if you have 300 soldiers in the fort, I would say anywhere from 140-160 supporting personnel not including family. I would not have a lot of heavy cavalry, other than for the shock charge. Fast, light cavalry would be good for skirmishing and harassing the enemy flanks. Quick Muslim horse archers caused a lot of damage to heavily armored, slower Catholic crusaders in the Middle Ages – launch a few volleys of arrows and then retreat when the heavy knights charged, and pretty soon the heavily armored knights are exhausted. It might work well against disorganized orcs and goblins as well. Pepper them with arrows from the flanks, the orcs get mad and charge, the horses retreat quickly, then pepper the still charging orcs with a few more arrows, retreat a little more, etc.
I would have a mix of bowmen and crossbowmen on the walls, and in arrow towers. And, of course, catapults & ballistae. If it is a large enough fort, it could support a large trebuchet (think big stationary catapult) or mangonel as well.
The fort will also need to have enough size to support any local farmers that retreat to the fort in times of need, as well as the men from the watch towers...
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