Magic missile too strong?

Mistwell said:

It's a very common situation that an NPC is fighting a PC in melee combat in a hallway.

I'm not sure how you adjudicate area spells. But in our game, there is no way to cast an area spell in a 5-10" wide hallway and miss the ally that is next to the NPC.

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I adjudicate area spells by the RAW. And by the RAW, unless you are very close to a corner, it is completely possible to cast an area spell in a 5-10' wide hallway and hit an enemy 5' away from an ally. It's fine if you play under different rules, but if you do, it's going to greatly diminish the effectiveness of area spells in certain situations. And that will probably make Magic Missile seem better by comparassion.

Mistwell said:

Why do you think that almost all other direct-damage spells have either a saving throw or a ranged attack roll?

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Because they're more powerful than Magic Missile. In many cases, vastly so.

Mistwell said:

Given the game designers of 3.0 said they also wanted to change magic missle to be higher damage but with a ranged attack roll, but playtesters shot it down merely because magic missle was "iconic", don't you think it's at least possible magic missle occupies a unique position in D&D that just might be a bit overpowered because of that uniquness?

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Unique, yes. Overpowered, no.

There is almost always something much more effective a 9th+ level Wizard/Sorceror can do with an action in combat besides 18 points of damage to one enemy. Unless said Wizard/Sorceror is totally gimped with respect to their selection of combat-useful spells.

apsuman said:

Been a while since I was here...

Is MM too powerful? The answer is yes. The proof is that it is still used by 10th and 15th level casters while other first level spells are not. IMHO QED.

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Several people have responded to this, but as I happen to be plaing a fighter/mage (ft1/wizard5/phantom knight2 specifically) I can attest that this is simply not true. I use shield in almost every encounter, ray of enfeeblement almost as often, protection from evil more and more (will save is not my strongsuit and it helps on many of those). I find myself often not even having room for magic missle anymore.

There are other situations where other 1st level spells outshine magic missle:

When using empower spell - ray of enfeeblement is terrifying and can reduce a fighter (or giant or even on a good roll a dragon) to tears, an empowered magic missle is merely slightly more annoying and really not even worth a 3rd level slot.

When channelling a spell (duskblade or spellsword) - shocking grasp is nasty - low level so the duskblade can channel it early and goes to 5d6 so at higher levels it can do some serious damage (because it can crit and most fighter mages are critting on at least a 17-20 with their weapon by higher levels - meaning a good chance at 10d6, not bad for a first level spell).

Mort said:

There are other situations where other 1st level spells outshine magic missle:

When using empower spell - ray of enfeeblement is terrifying and can reduce a fighter (or giant or even on a good roll a dragon) to tears, an empowered magic missle is merely slightly more annoying and really not even worth a 3rd level slot.

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I agree with everything you said.

And before I go any further let me (kind of) start over here...

Is magic missile too powerful? Yes.
Is that bad? No.

I think if you were to poll everyone on this issue you would find that the number of people that think MM is just fine plus the number of people that think it is overpowered for it's level but are just fine with it that way would really far outnumber the people that think it is overpowered and a problem.

You are correct that there are lots of instances where other first level spells are better than MM at all different kinds of levels of play. For example, if you were 18th level caster and casted a Heighted (to ninth level) charm person on the barbarian of the same level you have a real good chance of it working.

I think others have mentioned the "extra oomph" that MM has but I don't think anyone has put it this way: Magic Missile is a utility spell. It is a (perhaps the only) utility damage spell. I am typing this quickly and working from memory, but I can not think of another damage casing spell that guarantees a hit to the enemy you want (even in melee) without a save, and without resistance (yeah, I know SR and the shield spell). Chain Lightning comes close, I think, obviously it will strike more opponents but there is that save for half thing again. So Chain Lightning will do caster level * d6 damage, save for half, at level 12, that would be 12d6, average 42, save for 21 to the first target. MM would only do 5d4+5, average 17.5. Really I would expect a spell five levels higher to do more than 3.5 points of damage (before anyone gets riled up, all I am saying is that I would really be mad if I were the Chain Lightning caster and the first guy saved for 21 points and I knew I had 17.5 in my pocket I could have thrown at him instead for the cost of a first level spell). And, just for reference sake, a maximized empowered magic missile (level six) would do 25 + one half of 5d4+5 (average 8.75) for 33.75, guranteed.

In any adventure day where there are adversaries, MM is potentially useful. Charm person is not, shocking grasp is not, Burning hands is not, Alarm is not, Fly is not, etc. Magic Missile might not be the best choice, but it so so often such a good second choice that it would be foolish not recognize that.


g!

Grog said:

I adjudicate area spells by the RAW. And by the RAW, unless you are very close to a corner, it is completely possible to cast an area spell in a 5-10' wide hallway and hit an enemy 5' away from an ally.

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Goddamit, I need to start reading more carefully. I read this, and then started up Powerpoint to make a diagram to demonstrate that you were wrong. Then I hit reply, and noted that you said "it is completely possible"...

Oh well, here's the diagram anyway.


Tokens courtesy of Counter Collection Digital, from Fiery Dragon Productions.

terrainmonkey said:

why are you folks still arguing about this. magic missile is not overpowered at all. why anyone would say this about a 1st level spell is just, ... i'm sorry, Wrong!. NO. 25 points of damage. that's it. oh sure, there's a few feats, classes, etc. that give you more, but what, anouther couple of dice damage? maximized? what are we talking, 15 more points? really, DMs, come on. if you are making things so easy on your players such as having monsters with less than 40 hit points, you are not making enough of a challenge. folks at 9th level should be hitting things with no less than 60 hp, and that's minions. the BBEG is probaly sitting on somewhere in the neighborhood of 150+. and you are worried about Magic missile? get over it. move on to something else that is a better use of your discussion time. please. all you guys complaining about MM being too powerful for a 1st level spell need to go back to DM school and figure out better spells to get your players to use. magic missile stops being a good spell after 5th level. i have never had a mage use MM after this because the damage output is so minimal that it doesn't make sense at all to use it. in fact, i can count on 1 hand how many times a wizard in my party used magic missile in the last 5 years of DMing. it's a perfect 1st level spell. and it never gets out of hand.

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I think if you are comparing 9th level spells to first level spells to make the point that the 1st level spell is not overpowered relative to the 9th level spell, then you have missed the point.

Relative to the other lower level spells, magic missle is overpowered. Relative to other lower level spells, a spell that auto-hits for damage with no save and no attack roll is overpowered.

And if you think Magic Missle stops being a good spell after 5th level (which is, by the way, usually when people say it STARTS being a good spell, given it's damage and quantity of targets you can hit with it increases with levels up to 9th level) then perhaps you can tell me what other spell a 9th level caster can cast with a first level spell slot that will be useable in as many situations as magic missle.

Grog said:

I adjudicate area spells by the RAW. And by the RAW, unless you are very close to a corner, it is completely possible to cast an area spell in a 5-10' wide hallway and hit an enemy 5' away from an ally. It's fine if you play under different rules, but if you do, it's going to greatly diminish the effectiveness of area spells in certain situations. And that will probably make Magic Missile seem better by comparassion.

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If two combatants are in the middle of a hallway (as in one PC has chased an NPC down a hallway leaving the rest of the party in the room relatively close behind), then I disagree. If you cast the spell down the hall earlier than the combatants, then it's the PC you hit and not the NPC. If you cast the spell past the combatants, your vision is blocked and you cannot target with a fireball (for example) without a chance of hitting your ally or the opponant directly and triggering the fireball to hit both. And that is by the RAW. It's a fairly common situation. There are even several feats a spellcaster can take to help with this problem (or, of course, you could house rule it to make it easier to cast area spells, in which case Magic Missle will seem a lot less powerful).

Unique, yes. Overpowered, no.

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When the uniqueness of the spell makes it not more situational, but more universally useful, then yes unique is also overpowered.

There is almost always something much more effective a 9th+ level Wizard/Sorceror can do with an action in combat besides 18 points of damage to one enemy. Unless said Wizard/Sorceror is totally gimped with respect to their selection of combat-useful spells.

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A 9th level sorceror (and it is specifically sorceror's we have been talking about as the example, not wizards) doesn't have a whole lot of spells known. Unless they want to forego things like improved invisibility, fly, dimension door, and similar highly useful non-attack spells, then they often have only 3-4 offensive spells at that level, some of which are multi-use non-damage dealing spells like glitterdust and web and grease. So it may well be perfectly reasonable that a sorceror has at 9th level the options of magic missle and fireball as their direct damage dealing spells. As explained, the spread of fireball hitting your allies, and it's saving throw, and it's energy type (and immunity or resistance to it, or evasion), make it sub-optimal in some situations.

Staffan said:

Goddamit, I need to start reading more carefully. I read this, and then started up Powerpoint to make a diagram to demonstrate that you were wrong. Then I hit reply, and noted that you said "it is completely possible"...

Oh well, here's the diagram anyway.

Tokens courtesy of Counter Collection Digital, from Fiery Dragon Productions.

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Thank you for the diagram. You have your caster casting a fireball THROUGH and past two combatants blocking the corridor, which definitely triggers the rules for accidentally hitting one of them and triggering it right on top of them "If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely." See also the cover rules, I believe.

In fact, I think you couldn't actually hit that origin point given the positions of the characters. You will smack right into the NPC with the fireball bead, triggering the fireball in the face of the NPC, the ally, and backwashing over the caster also. You need direct line of sight to the target point.

You've turned fireball into both a saving throw energy-based spell (with relatively common immunities and resistances) AND a ranged touch attack spell with significant risk of blowing up your ally, and yourself. Perfect example of a situation where magic missle might well be the MUCH better option.

I suspect a lot of people are just ignoring issues of cover and line of sight and hitting allies or NPCs, and allowing players to cast spells anywhere within line of effect. Such a houserule would in fact make magic missle a lot less attractive (and many area spells a lot more powerful, with several feats to deal with these situations now virtually useless).

Mistwell said:

Thank you for the diagram. You have your caster casting a fireball THROUGH and past two combatants blocking the corridor, which definitely triggers the rules for accidentally hitting one of them and triggering it right on top of them "If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely." See also the cover rules, I believe.

In fact, I think you couldn't actually hit that origin point given the positions of the characters. You will smack right into the NPC with the fireball bead, triggering the fireball in the face of the NPC, the ally, and backwashing over the caster also. You need direct line of sight to the target point.

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I don't agree. You don't need line of sight - you need line of effect, which means there must be at least a one-square-foot gap in the squares the spell passes through. There's a lot more than one square foot of space in a square occupied by a creature.

If we were to use 3E terminology, an arrow slit provides 9/10 cover; a creature only provides half cover. Aiming a spell past a creature is not a "narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit". It's mostly empty space.

The situation shown is not one that would cause any difficulty for a fireball placement.

-Hyp.

Mistwell said:

And if you think Magic Missle stops being a good spell after 5th level (which is, by the way, usually when people say it STARTS being a good spell, given it's damage and quantity of targets you can hit with it increases with levels up to 9th level) then perhaps you can tell me what other spell a 9th level caster can cast with a first level spell slot that will be useable in as many situations as magic missle.

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Enlarge Person-Always helpful on the BDF
Mage Armor-Armor the BDF so when you Polymorph him he's at +4 AC
Shield-But only if you're dumb enough not to wear a brooch of shielding
True Strike-turn all your higher level spells into magic missile auto-hits
Shocking Grasp-5d6 still does more average damage than 5d4+5 and it effects all the enemies that are smart enough to wear brooches of shielding
Burning Hands-Use it against swarms when you want to save your fireball
Grease-save your buddies from all those improved grab monsters or provide sneak attack for your rogue
Ray of Enfeeblement-Lower damage, lower to hit, lower grapple, easier to trip. What's not to like?

My spellcasters usually put their highest stat in casting ability, and second highest in dex. This makes any other damaging spell decent, and it's not like everything has touch AC 100 or the saves of a monk. I can usually find a way to place an area spell so that it doesn't hit an enemy. Also, I have never known the damage carried by a MM to turn the tide of battle.