Magic missile too strong?

[Vegepygmy]

The situation shown is not one that would cause any difficulty for a fireball placement.

Agreed. And note that most area effect spells aren't subject to fireball's special targeting rules, anyway.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Shocking Grasp-5d6 still does more average damage than 5d4+5...

You'll find the average damage for both is 17.5.

Shield-But only if you're dumb enough not to wear a brooch of shielding

"One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck..."

It takes up the amulet slot. My divine casters want a Periapt of Wisdom there, and most of my other characters want an Amulet of Natural Armor or Amulet of Health...

-Hyp.

 

[dagger]

Goddamit, I need to start reading more carefully. I read this, and then started up Powerpoint to make a diagram to demonstrate that you were wrong. Then I hit reply, and noted that you said "it is completely possible"...

Oh well, here's the diagram anyway.


Tokens courtesy of Counter Collection Digital, from Fiery Dragon Productions.

My wizard would just delay and let the fighter take a 5' step.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

And if you think Magic Missle stops being a good spell after 5th level (which is, by the way, usually when people say it STARTS being a good spell, given it's damage and quantity of targets you can hit with it increases with levels up to 9th level) then perhaps you can tell me what other spell a 9th level caster can cast with a first level spell slot that will be useable in as many situations as magic missle.

Magic missile is only good in one single situation... When you want to do damage to your target. Every other spell is good in at least that many situations. As for other first level spells that are useful in more situations than that... The protection from x spells are good for both protecting you from damage and for protecting you from effects. Grease is good for both general battlefield control and for protecting yourself (or others) from grappling critters. Summon monster I is useful for dealing damage to your target, for protecting you from damage, or for any number of things that you might want to do with a celestial monkey or fiendish raven for nine rounds. The bonus about being ninth level, though, is that you don't have to rely on first level spells. You can deal damage with all sorts of spells, but as you progress in levels, dealing direct damage becomes less and less optimal a choice for characters that can cast magic missile.

Later
silver

 

[apsuman]

Enlarge Person-Always helpful on the BDF

Unless he is down, or swarmed by many opponents (large creatures occupy more squares allowing more opponents to simutaneously engage). Forget about casting it in cramped quarters, like narrow dungeon hallways. Oh, and there is that whole 1 round casting time also, maybe you would like to move in that round instead.

Mage Armor-Armor the BDF so when you Polymorph him he's at +4 AC

I know I am woefully out of date on the current Polymorph, but what happens to the amultet/bracers/cloak/whatever that grants him a bonus to AC and will not stack with Mage Armor (because that was the spell used to enchant the item)?

Shield-But only if you're dumb enough not to wear a brooch of shielding

Or you are wearing some other type of brooch/scarab/amulet.

True Strike-turn all your higher level spells into magic missile auto-hits

True, but at the cost of another spell. True Strike + Polar Ray cast by a 16th level caster would deal 16d6 for an average of 56. By comparison, Two castings of magic missile would only do an average of 35. Two maximized magic missile spells (that would be two fourth level spell slots) would do 50 points of damage. Glad to see that being able to cast 8th level spells and use true strike would give you on average 6 more points of damage, than an 8th level sorcerer.

Shocking Grasp-5d6 still does more average damage than 5d4+5 and it effects all the enemies that are smart enough to wear brooches of shielding

Wrong: it deals exactly the same average damage. Requires a to hit, and that you be really close to the guy you want to shock. For a straight caster being close is often not the desire location. Hey, I know, lets cast true strike first, let him take a swing at us, then we get to Shocking Grasp him.

Burning Hands-Use it against swarms when you want to save your fireball

Useless against fire resistant creatures, if you wouldn't fireball them you wouldn't Burning Hands them either. Also, there is that whole save for half thing. A save on a first level spell. So, that average damage would be 12.5, but only 6 if you save.

Grease-save your buddies from all those improved grab monsters or provide sneak attack for your rogue

Except for flying baddies. Oh, and that whole save against a first level spell thing again like burning hands.

Ray of Enfeeblement-Lower damage, lower to hit, lower grapple, easier to trip. What's not to like?

It's great. It requires a to hit. Hey, why not use true strike first ? How about against other casters?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I know I am woefully out of date on the current Polymorph, but what happens to the amultet/bracers/cloak/whatever that grants him a bonus to AC and will not stack with Mage Armor (because that was the spell used to enchant the item)?

Generally, a fighter will wear armour, rather than using Bracers of Armor. When he is polymorphed, he'll lose access to his armour unless he stays essentially the same size category (usually Medium) and shape (generally bipedal). Most of the favoured Polymorph melee forms tend to be Large, so he'll lose his armour, and he's not wearing Bracers of Armor anyway. The Mage Armor will be useful in this case.

Note that is not the fact that Mage Armor is used to create an item, but the fact that both the spell and the item provide an Armor Bonus, that will lead to non-stacking.

-Hyp.

 

[Mistwell]

I don't agree. You don't need line of sight - you need line of effect, which means there must be at least a one-square-foot gap in the squares the spell passes through. There's a lot more than one square foot of space in a square occupied by a creature.

If we were to use 3E terminology, an arrow slit provides 9/10 cover; a creature only provides half cover. Aiming a spell past a creature is not a "narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit". It's mostly empty space.

The situation shown is not one that would cause any difficulty for a fireball placement.

-Hyp.

It's line of sight, since you are shooting an actual object (a bead) to the location. It is NOT just line of effect.

In this case, there is no question the target you are aiming for has cover (draw the line, and you will see it pretty clearly). It's not total cover, but it IS cover, and you have a chance of hitting that cover if you actually want that particular spot to be the spot where you measure the burst from.

 

[Hypersmurf]

It's line of sight, since you are shooting an actual object (a bead) to the location. It is NOT just line of effect.

In this case, there is no question the target you are aiming for has cover (draw the line, and you will see it pretty clearly). It's not total cover, but it IS cover, and you have a chance of hitting that cover if you actually want that particular spot to be the spot where you measure the burst from.

You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

Passing a Medium creature in a 5 foot square isn't a narrow passage such as an arrow slit. I point my finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst - I don't need to be able to see that spot, I just need to determine the distance and height.

Since it's not being sent through a narrow passage, no ranged touch attack is necessary.

-Hyp.

 

[Staffan]

I'll just let Hyp speak for me in this thread. Getting past two guys standing next to one another is far easier than shooting through an arrow slit.

And even if you did require an attack roll... it would be against AC 9 or so (base 10, -5 for immobile object = Dex 0, +4 for cover). Shouldn't be problematic in the least.

 

[Votan]

I'll just let Hyp speak for me in this thread. Getting past two guys standing next to one another is far easier than shooting through an arrow slit.

And even if you did require an attack roll... it would be against AC 9 or so (base 10, -5 for immobile object = Dex 0, +4 for cover). Shouldn't be problematic in the least.

I will not only agree but add the comment that if Mistwell is requiring these sorts of rolls for fireball than his view on the relative strength of magic missle makes perfect sense. There are two ways to see something as strong -- to see it as strong in and of itself or to make the comparators weak (by making it hard to use).

But, as far as I cna assess by RAW analogies, this should be pretty automatic as arrow slit implies 9/10 cover and the person in the corridor is soft cover.