Not allowed to talk about current HP and dying

Since I've started running 4th ed games and read through the DMG I've loosened up about revealing information to players. Hints for minions, giving distances for Auras, generally allowing players to know more.One rule that has been in all DnD games since I started playing and across the board. Players can't discuss actual HP, and when unconcious can't tell players if they are on the brink of death or not. I've even had a few games or times when I've banned unconcious players from giving tactical advice.Now I'm starting to wonder how the players feel about these rules. Are they fun? what are they adding to the game? I'll be asking my players next time I see them, but I'd like to know the general concensus What do you do in your games?

Final Attack said:

Since I've started running 4th ed games and read through the DMG I've loosened up about revealing information to players. Hints for minions, giving distances for Auras, generally allowing players to know more.One rule that has been in all DnD games since I started playing and across the board. Players can't discuss actual HP, and when unconcious can't tell players if they are on the brink of death or not. I've even had a few games or times when I've banned unconcious players from giving tactical advice.Now I'm starting to wonder how the players feel about these rules. Are they fun? what are they adding to the game? I'll be asking my players next time I see them, but I'd like to know the general concensus What do you do in your games?

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If you ban hp talk, can the player be given a rough guide line?
Give them a sheet of paper:
a. slightly injured, b. injured, c. Moderately injured, and d. massively injured.
Slightly injured hps: 90% full.
Injured: 70%
Bloodied: 50% and below
Moderately: 30%
Massively: 10%

Than they can talk about it; yet not talk about it. They can at least give general idea. I mean, how can the players not know that much?
It requires a calculator or so to figure this out, but it might work better.

The unconscious/dying rule: have you nioticed many deaths as a resulty of the rule?
I haven't yet had the chance to make a PC dying (got close a few times).

I generally allow my players to talk as much as they wish.

They are not battle hardened veterans, they merely play them in a game Discussing tactics, health, etc. allows them to come up with better plans than just playing alone.

That said perfect knowledge does allow some meta-game analysis. In 3.X knowing somebody was on -1hp meant you could safely leave them for a couple of rounds (as long as the DM didn't attack them / include them in area attack spells). In 4th I'd say the 3 failed saves rule actually reduces meta-game worries. Since it usually takes a few rounds to get to and save somebody you can't leave them even in they are on full death saves. Furthermore since the 3 saves rule is per encounter, not every time you drop then any delay now might reduce their chances later.

However the 50/50 chance on saving throws does mean that if there is a viable attack plan that should be implemented rather than saving your friend then you can make that choice if necessary.

One question for you - do you allow people to narrate their own appearence? I've seen people come up with very detailed descriptions of how much blood is pumping out their bodies / wound descriptions that basically allow them to give precise health accounts even in rule systems that don't allow you to share such detail. But it takes them much longer (and is more nauseating) than merely going "I'm on -2 hit points". If your players don't use that work around you're lucky.

You might as well just use this...

I generally only "allow" players to describe themselves as "unwounded" (full), "wounded" (not full not bloodied) and "bloodied". I did this before 4e (but used "more than 1/2" or "less than 1/2". And I've always restricted knowledge of NPCs in the same way. Out of combat I allow hit point talk (people have time to look carefully, and anyone that can heal should be able to work it out, and it's too big of a pain not to). And I've always allowed negative hp/death token discussions.

The players don't always live by those directions, but there you are.

Mark

4E has definitely drifted into the "the more information the players have, the more fun it is" territory.

However as a player, I do not see it that way.

There is a limit to metagaming information that I want to have as a player.

Knowing that an ally is bloodied is fine as it it part and parcel of the rules set for game decisions, balance, etc.

Knowing actual hit points is not.

I'm not playing a MMORPG, so I don't want to see a running total of my allies HPs. JMO.

The fun for me is overcoming challenges, being surprised and reacting to it, etc. If the DM gives out too much metagaming information, it makes too many decisions automatic and it's not as much fun as guessing.

And yes, guessing is often fun too.

Cleric: "Both the Paladin and the Wizard are bloodied. Who should I heal?"

That should not be determined on current hit point total, rather, it should be a tactical decision based on the current situation. I don't want "the right answer" fed to me, I want to make my own decisions as a Cleric. I might make a mistake, but that's ok.

Where in the rule book does it state that it's more fun to always be right than it is to make your own decisions?

So I vote that the players know that another player is unconscious, bloodied, or fine with regard to hit points.

A good healer should monitor their companions throughout a fight. So they should have a good idea of who has been wounded how much. If the healer is not doing this, then I'll just tell them when someone is bloodied. For monster HP's I do the same, I announce when they are bloodied. I also sometimes will announce when they are very close to death, like when one more hit will kill them. I just don't want to see someone blow a daily on a monster with 3 HP's left.

This to me has more to do with rewarding an attentive healer, than revealing information.

What about a player with a good memory for numbers who will just count everybody's HP during fight by remembering how much damage they have received? Or without good memory, but just with piece of paper where he will scribble cryptic code ?

If you want to go way of no communicating HP, go full way - don't mention hp even to the player who gets hurt. Just inform him about being at 75%/50%/25%/0% of his total hp and that's it. A lot more bookkeeping for your, unfortunately.

Going further this route, you could disallow talking about/seeing their defense stats, attack bonuses... even ability scores. Why only HP are banned?

In our group, we don't talk about hit points, but we will openly declared "bloodied" or "down and unconcious" when it happens (to PCs or others).

Also, the player is always free to ask "has that guy been hit at all yet" (since the characters would remember who was hit and who wasn't) or "which of the other PCs look bad?" (at which point the players would say 'not at all' 'barely bloodied' 'very bad off') or "i forgot, is that monster bloodied yet?" (especially our party tiefling, but others, have powers or feats that kick in for bloodied opponents, so they actually need to know this or they'll feel robbed of their power's effect)

Often as the DM I will toss out "he looks really bad off" about monsters (I'll usually say this if the monster gets down to 1-2 hp or something; of course, at that point several monsters would be turning to run)

So, long story short: we don't talk about hit points. but we do openly talk about bloodied status (for all creatures on the battlefield) and we will have some relative modifying descriptions tossed around if asked specifically about creature X, Y, or Z.

We don't have any hard and fast % based rules though.

As far as unconcious PCs helping with tactical advice, we try hard not to let that happen. But sometimes someone is just being hyper and wants to be part of the action rather than being quiet, so he/she blurts out the occasional. The DM will sometimes remind "remember, you're unconcious" but we never have to go in to a harsh penalty or anything over it.

Insight, man, insight.

The way I do things is verbal descriptions of hits (bigger damage/crits leaves bigger looking wounds etc.). But, everyone knows when somebody is bloodied or unconscious. A person with a limited free action insight roll (as in, it's a free action but only on their turn) can figure out various things... like 'how tough the enemy is' or 'how bad are my buddies doing?' For this I generally give a description that reveals HP values by comparison, or sometimes quantifies who's a minion or not, or drops a hint of some kind. Some people (elven friggin' clerics) pretty much just KNOW how everybody's doing.