Base modifiers to replace +x feats and items...

I'm trying to figure out a good estimate for how to set up a progression chart for characters so that I can remove all the little +x's from the game, and also to potentially remove the defense gap that exists at very high levels for some characters.

The chart below shows where I'm at right now. The items below the listed entries are what I'm trying to take into account as being removed/replaced. In the case of the saving throws, what I'm trying to do is limit the gap between characters with a +10 ability score modifier to their good save, and a +1 ability score modifier to their poor save that crops up at epic levels. My estimates there are that a character gets a good save if their starting ability score in one area was a 17-20, a moderate save if their starting ability score was a 13-16, and a poor save if thier starting ability score was a 10-12. There might be better ways to adjust for this though.

With this, you can assume that robust defenses/paragon defenses/epic defense feats/weapon focus/weapon expertise/etc. don't exist. Anything that just gives a +x wouldn't exist.

Ability score modifiers would still apply directly to attacks, damage, and skills - but not to defenses. Instead, defenses just have a modifier as shown here (basically 15, 12, or 10, +1 per level).

Interesting work.

I take it Skill Focus, Skill Training and Jack-of-all-Trades (and other skill bonuses) are unchanged? All the little skill bonuses can be as fiddly as attack bonuses.

What about bonus damage on a critical hit (from magic weapons)? It doesn't seem you've taken that into account.

What magic item adds +6 to damage? Are you counting magic weapon twice?

EDIT: Have you considered removing bonuses to ability scores all together, and accounting for regular increases by just increasing attack bonuses, damage bonuses, etc? In other words, the STR you have at level 1 is the STR you have at level 30.

Sanglorian said:

I take it Skill Focus, Skill Training and Jack-of-all-Trades (and other skill bonuses) are unchanged? All the little skill bonuses can be as fiddly as attack bonuses.

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Those would be unchanged. I think that those are a little bit more flavorful and they don't bug me the way (for example) weapon expertise does, where it almost seems like a required feat.

What about bonus damage on a critical hit (from magic weapons)? It doesn't seem you've taken that into account.

What magic item adds +6 to damage? Are you counting magic weapon twice?

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Well, the +6 item bonus refers to items like Iron Armbands of Power, which give a +2 bonus to melee damage per tier. There's a similar item for bow/crossbow users. There isn't something like that for spellcasters that I'm aware of though. I'm not sure what the right thing to do is. It's not like iron armbands of power are a required item, but I somewhat dislike them because they seem like a given for most characters since they give such a bonus to most attacks.

As for the critical property, I'm not sure there either. Sometimes it's used in interesting ways on items (1d8 temporary hit points per +, or different effects/damage types) and I think that is interesting. I might try to keep that sort of thing available on magic items and just scale it by by tier or by 5 levels (1 to 5 = 1d6, 6 to 10 = 2d6, 11 to 15 = 3d6, 16 to 20 = 4d6, 21 to 25 = 5d6, 26+ = 6d6.

So a magic item like a blackshroud weapon would be 1d8 temporary hit points per 5 levels or thereabouts. That way a weapon would remain just as significant over the course of all levels. I'm not really sure on this.

EDIT: Have you considered removing bonuses to ability scores all together, and accounting for regular increases by just increasing attack bonuses, damage bonuses, etc? In other words, the STR you have at level 1 is the STR you have at level 30.

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I think that's a cool idea, and that's the approach I'm trying to make. That might be a cool way to adjust for a lot of things and would make things seem a little bit more fluid. It might be worth a shot to figure out how that math would work.

Just to make sure I understand, you want to:

1. Remove dependence on magical bling.
2. Fix the PC-monster stat discrepency.
3. Reduce the gap between high and low defenses at high levels.

For number 1 and 2, check out my Tome of House Rules. For number 3, I can't think of a really good suggestion. Removing ability boosts and adding more stat boosts would work, but I think most players would feel like you've taken away a fun way to modify their PC. (Yeah, even though at least one of those ability boosts every fourth level isn't really an option.) EDIT: You could just give PCs a third ability boost every fourth level, and require that each boost go to a different defense stat: one must go to Str or Con, one must go to Dex or Int and one must go to Wis or Cha.

Part of my issue with the saves is that, while they vary by about 5 at most (before race/class bonuses modify them) at 1st level, at 30th... worst case... they can be different by 10 (ability score modifier difference) + 6 (feats) + 2 or possibly 3 from item bonuses + 1 from class. A 19-20 point range is just too large of a birth to deal with. Really, the problem components there are the feats and the items. When they are used to bolster up a weak save, they work great. When they are used to boost an already strong save though, they skew target numbers.

EDIT: You could just give PCs a third ability boost every fourth level, and require that each boost go to a different defense stat: one must go to Str or Con, one must go to Dex or Int and one must go to Wis or Cha.

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Or simply shore up weak saves by giving a minimum modifier per level to saves. What I mean by that your saves ability modifier component would be (your ability score modifier, or 1/6 your level, whichever is greater). That would still fill the gap. There's a lot of potential solutions to these issues, obviously.

New chart. This would be for a system with static ability scores. That is to say, if you have an 18 at first level, you will always have an 18. Feat requirements would have to be changed, as well as those attacks that are given a +x bonus to compensate for not using a weapon (minotaur's goring charge is an example) but in that case you just remove the bonus. Here's what I've done:

Attack Bonus: Your "Base Attack Bonus" is equal to your level. Weapon proficiency bonuses would all be reduced by 2 (so a +1 proficiency weapon would become a -1, a +3 proficiency weapon would be +1, etc.). This was done to keep the other math as simple as possible. This also makes "off-ability" attacks better than they would normally be by 3 points by level 30, but that seems like a good thing to me and not a bad thing.

Damage: Meant to line up with base attack damage with a melee weapon with iron armbands of power and weapon focus. Obviously this makes any attack with a lower damage bonus better. Not sure if I have a better workaround for that yet.

Skill: Basically normal, but giving a +2 bonus to skill checks with 2 different ability scores at levels 11 and 21. Not exactly a match with ability score increases, but allows you to emulate that (+4 str/cha skills, for example), but also allows someone to shore up weak skills or spread it around.

Defense: 10+1 per level. Super simple. Maximum difference between two saves would be 5 before outside bonuses like class or an item, which I think is about what you would have if you were a monster.

Threads like these make me wonder whether the sacred cow of six ability scores that are used as primary variables to determine other secondary variables (such as attack and damage modifiers, AC and other defenses, hit points, initiative checks and skill checks, etc.) ought to be slaughtered, at least in the next edition.

Or perhaps the relationship ought to be reversed. Instead of a high Strength increasing a character's base melee attack modifier (or whatever we want to call it), perhaps every character should have a base melee attack modifier that depends on class and maybe race. If a player decides that his character should have a higher than average melee attack modifier (perhaps the player has a small number of feats or other benefits to distribute during character creation and advancement) then he could also increase the character's Strength and flavor the higher melee attack modifier to be a result of the character's high Strength. Alternatively, if the character is more of a swashbuckler, the player could increase the character's Dexterity instead. In this manner, ability scores have no mechanical effect, but become a role-playing tool that helps the player describe his character.

Heh, the 4e-like system I mess around with on my way to/from work uses static ability scores and +level just like you've done, removes all of the same feats, and item types. I did something slightly different with damage, but close enough. Heartening to see someone else with the same objections and almost same solutions

For reference, staff of ruin and a couple other items can give casters item bonus to damage so it's not entirely abnormal.

In the home system, I switched weapons/armor/neck over to a per tier scale instead of an every 5, and also had item costs multiply out by tier instead of per 5.

This is an interesting idea but why not build it so its compatible with all the current stuff? Why not use the rules for creating NPCs in the DMG. It has a relatively simple formula for eliminating feat and item bonuses though it doesn't account for weapon proficiency bonuses or the like. Still, its usable.

Another way to handle it is by giving classes a set +attack bonus:

Fighter / ranger types: +3
Rogue types: +5
Spellcaster types: +2

Then have it scale up with level.