Discussion - General Discussion Thread '09

It certainly isn't an Evil act, triggering detect evil or causing problems for alignment.
Whether it is lower-case evil would be a matter for individual conscience, I'd suppose, and teachings of various churches might differ. The god of gaming, Jareth, is Lawful Evil*, which probably influences how such pastimes are perceived by the more zealous. On the other hand, Grendath, the god of luck, is Chaotic Good.

*St Peter Damian 1, Bishop of Florence 0.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Over in L4W, I've been beating the drum for shorter, focused adventures, with I think some success*. There have been a number of good adventures with 2-4 encounters and some good roleplaying, that finish -- with their original DM and most of their original players, usually -- in 3-4 months. People seem to be pretty happy with that. I don't think I'm done DMing here, and future adventures I run here will certainly be structured along those lines. Once I've finished off what I've already got going, that is.

*This despite the fact that the game I run there is closing in on a year's playing time. It's not my fault the PCs keep getting distracted!
 


Wow! Trouvere, you've got way too much time on your hands! :lol:
Those are all good points you raise. A great summary of the state of play, and some good ideas. Thanks! :)
And extremely wordy. It was late at night. I could have more succinctly said: by historical accident, the main map is a large area, sparsely scattered with old, stable cities; to accommodate higher level players, we'll need to either alter portions of it, or begin to use a larger area, and travel to and fro will become tiresome if we always begin from Orussus. There, that was faster.
I don't have an aversion to the judicious use of portals, although I'd hate to see them as an over-used plot device. [snip] If we just relied on instantaneous travel to get everywhere, we would lose the immersion in the world which, as you say, has been developed over time.
Yes, there are just so many nice existing places, and places that are tantalisingly undeveloped.
Still, a judicious use of a small number of fixed portals (with an explanation of how they got there ... hmm, perhaps Darque's fiddling with the portal in The Darque Portal might trigger the emergence of a new portal between Orussus and our secondary location) could well solve some of the problems you've raised without changing the nature of the world altogether.
Darque's portal does spring to mind, if Phoenix8008 isn't planning to collapse it at successful adventure resolution. Maybe he'll explain where that one came from!

We could uncover a permanent teleportation circle to some place interesting. A powerful nation, like Carduth, might even have access to a set of ring gates, inherited from a golden age, which could be relocated to make staging posts. Either type of item requires the past existence of a 17th level caster, though.
I do think it's unlikely we're going to get huge numbers of new players coming in, now. But an emphasis on a 3.5 living world where players could take on multiple characters (beyond the base three), might be attractive and sustainable.
I'd very much like to think so. I know I have a lot of 3.5 characters I'd like to try out and I have absolutely no interest in running them anywhere except in LEW, least of all in some one-off PbP game.
I do think, however, that there might well be a quid pro quo - where a one-off expenditure of DM credits is required to activate a 4th, 5th and successive characters
Well, yes. There's that. I do think that's a good idea, sometimes. Right now, though, I'm not so sure. We have a little bit of a catch-22, in that we've few enough players for new games.

Suppose I wanted to earn some DM credits. The 8th/9ths have expressed interest in a game centred around reclaiming Rasereit's ancestral homeland. I don't think I'd be great at running that, someone else would do a much better job. I can't run anything for the 4th/5ths, because my wizard character is one of them. There may or may not be other PCs around, but they're not in the Tavern or not talking, so I have no idea. I have two adventures approved (one for several possible level ranges and one for 1sts), but the existing 1sts are a pretty terrible fit for them (either they'd not work well, or they'd not get to use their main abilities; yes, I'd probably have done better to design a game around the players we do have, but I had two simple ideas that I'd written up, so wanted to get approval out of the way should I ever feel enthused enough to jump in).

So I would be waiting for the people who already have DM credits to make their 4th PCs, if they wanted to, or for ongoing games to finish. There are enough DMs with credits to form one more party, I guess, enabling one person wanting DM credits to run a game. Which allows for exactly one more 4th character, which... Well, it could be quite a while before everyone who wanted a 4th character got the chance to earn some credits!

So why not hope to bootstrap back into life with 'free' 4th PCs, and once we're humming again, if 5th PCs become necessary, then they can be bought with DM credits... which I really do think is a good encouragement to run some games. Mind you, if what has been said about an expected dearth of new players turns out to be true, then we'll be begging for new low level characters, not passing them out as rewards for participation on the evil side of the DM screen.
That does seem to indicate that there are players out there, and one of our now absent players managed to recruit from the general forum, so it probably would be worth putting up a recruitment thread there!
I don't know just how successful Halford's recruitment drive was. I think the precise phrasing of any 'advertisement' will make a difference. There are a lot of people who wait around in TtT/PtG waiting to try to claim a spot as soon as they see a game mentioned (such as, perhaps, the fellow who played the replacement druid in 'Urn Your Pay', who disappeared with the end of the academic year), whereas for LEW we're - ideally - looking for players who are in it for the long haul. We might get a better ROI by couching the drive in terms of 'LEW's still in business, you know, folks', rather than 'Anyone want to play in my game, which happens to be in LEW?'
A nitpick, but Weel is a 1st level cleric, too, though he's currently stranded at the Bizarre Bazaar...
Of course. I didn't mean to snub Weel. But he is tucked away in a game at the moment, not waiting at the Tavern.
Over in L4W, I've been beating the drum for shorter, focused adventures, with I think some success*. There have been a number of good adventures with 2-4 encounters and some good roleplaying, that finish -- with their original DM and most of their original players, usually -- in 3-4 months. People seem to be pretty happy with that.
That's the way to go, I definitely believe.
 

Yes, there are just so many nice existing places, and places that are tantalisingly undeveloped.
There sure are, Trouvere. Why don't you talk a little about some of them?
Why, don't mind if I do.

I've attached a slightly reworked version of the Orussus region and Earling maps, which overlap slightly with an offset. I've identified a few marked but unnamed locations and added a few more that we can be fairly sure of: Andren, Monemvassia, Three Rings, the Kree tribal lands, Beth Hannon, Braeholl, Havertown, Seawell, Apple Glade (this village used to be mentioned a lot!), Gemhold, Rincewood, Briarton, Triesk, Grenton, Covington, Otun, Cragger's Rest, Salt Holler.

Familiarise yourselves. ;)

Also have a look at the whole world sketch map that Rae made (almost 2 years ago!). It can be found here.

What do we know about the rest of the world?

The "missing" 250 mile wide strip east of the Earling Map presumably just contains more of the Northern Mountains and Wilding Wood, but somewhere in there probably lies the lake and village plagued by killer fish and merrows in "A Clash of Earth and Sea". I'd be interested to know what lies NE of Hendralia, since you can just see its border marker curling around.

Let's go on to the rectangle that lies immediately south of the Orussus Region Map, and call it the Riverlands Map. At the very top of this map, a river named Rheius flows into the Grellgo from the east. On the southern shore of this river is the city of Rheim (or Riem). Over on the coast of the Great Sea, the next town down from Drolai and Raithe is Linilo.

The eponymous Riverlands extend down the western side of the Riverlands Map. The road south crosses rivers seven times, so the area is also known as the Land of Seven Bridges. I am unsure whether there are seven different rivers, or whether one or more loop around to be crossed twice. The Riverlands are generally sub-tropical. Faint blueness on the whole world map hints that many lakes extend north-west towards the coast, south of Linilo. The small town of Antreil lies in the SW corner of this map. The eastern half of the Riverlands Map remains as yet an unexplored blank - though I believe something can be said of it (see later).

In the rectangle immediately west of the Riverlands Map are two known locations - the city of Severus, inhabited by gnolls, and the nation of Ushad. Though each is described as being about 1000 miles SW of Orussus, Ushad lies perhaps 100 miles further north than Severus. Severus definitely lies in the Badlands, among rocky canyons. Ushad is a land ruled by mages who squabble constantly and duel with one another for advancement in the magocratic hierarchy. The church of Gliran is the official state religion of Ushad. As such, the country probably has a pragmatic attitude towards the use of undead (it sounds a little like Thay crossed with Karrnath to me).

The party of 'A Sojourn to Sairundan' crossed through the SW corner of the Riverlands Map into the rectangle that lies south of 'Ushad'. Heading SW across it, the land grows progressively dryer and more barren. There's not much explored in this rectangle. The tiny village of Tillenvale, the Haunted City once occupied by elves and dwarves, Irid's inn on the edge of the desert. Before reaching the inn, the party could see a great range of mountains to the south-east. Once again, the Sairundan party exited this rectangle close to the SW corner, to a rectangle that contains Sairundan and specifically Helatia.

If you look at the whole world sketch map, you can see a major feature - a roughly 3x3 set of rectangles (each the size of our standard Orussus map, remember: 1024 x 768 miles, oddly enough) that begins at the SE corner of the Haunted City Map and contains a collection of inland seas. Large bodies of water are sufficiently scarce that they're probably quite important in Enworld.

On the sketch map, you can also follow the coastline of the main landmass in a great curve from Earling west, then north, then east, then south. Somewhere where it turns east you find the very first place that anyone could say is "on the coast north and east of Orussus". Therefore, this is where we ought to find Osilia - "white in winter, and green in summer", 4 rectangles north of Orussus and anywhere between 0 and 2(?) east. Perhaps also the region of Damas and Ithyria, the City of Roses, though this could be on any coast with a hinterland big enough to support a great river.
 

Attachments

  • known world.jpg
    known world.jpg
    249 KB · Views: 178

Right. Let's take a look at the rectangle immediately east of the Orussus Region Map (ORM).

The Empire of Carduth lies somewhere east of the Stonespike Mountains. Its capital city is Lhondaio. Nurlan Naibi is a native of this city. His mentor was named Shkarna. As far as I know, these are the only Carduthian names we know (assuming Shkarna is also from Carduth).

From the wiki, whose main source I think is 'The Haunted Halls of Stonepike', we learn that Carduth is large and expansionist, somewhat like the Roman Empire. They field many legions, stationed throughout the empire. Their soldiers are supported by wizards and hippogriff air cavalry. In their last major expansion, 40 years ago, Carduth annexed Gallipona, a semi-desert land of spices and horse-traders lying to its south. Carduth recently sent 10,000 men (presumably two or three legions) to fight the confusingly named dwarven city of Stonepike in the Stonespikes and their Bainlund hillmen allies. They've had little success so far.

So where exactly is Carduth? It has also been said to be "at odds with Hendralia to the north", which goes without saying if it is east of the Stonespikes. Nevertheless, this statement does limit how far north Carduth's centre-of-mass can lie, if Hendralians regard the Empire as lying to their south rather than to their east. Yet Carduth has unfriendly contact with Hendralia, trying to stir up trouble between it and Rivenblight (as if they need to bother). In the ORM, there's an east-west road that heads through Tharol (once part of Medibaria but now outside its recognised borders) determinedly eastwards between the northern edge of the Stonespikes and the hints of another mountain range, to... where? Nowhere that we know of, but probably not far from the northern extent of Carduth. Chances are the road was once maintained in this region by Medibaria. This seems like a sensible route for Carduthian envoys to Hendralia to take.

Anyway, this puts Carduth's bulk more in the southern half of the rectangle east of the Orussus Region. How far east it extends is still anyone's guess, though if we assume it has roughly the land area of the Roman Empire, then it ought to extend over about 2.5 complete rectangles.

Gallipona is probably on the southern edge of the rectangle east of the "Riverlands Map" at the closest (or else it would likely be wetter), and probably it's in the rectangle south of that. One rectangle yet further south is the top-middle of the 3x3 inland sea block (which would surely be a major goal if they knew of it) where lands would again be wetter, so Gallipona can't be this far south.

Why is Carduth trying so hard to conquer Stonepike, rather than marching west into the Riverlands, then perhaps turning north up the Grellgo towards Orussus? I think we can safely conclude that the eastern portion of the Riverlands Map contains some kind of barrier impassable to massed troops. My guess is that it's a very large forest, beginning just south of Stonepike and Bainlund's area of influence, temperate at first and turning to jungle as we head south corresponding to the sub-tropical Riverlands. If Carduth has sent a legion through it, they probably had a Teutoberg Forest-type disaster, which has discouraged them from sending any more legions west by this route, hence the focus on Stonepike.

A true desert presumably lies south of Gallipona, preventing the long journey south-west-north.

Why haven't they tried to cross into the western lands by the Tharol road? I'm picturing a lonely Medibarian outpost holding a narrow mountain pass, allowing merchant and diplomatic traffic, but willing to die to the last man to prevent a Carduthian passage in force. Perhaps they can collapse the pass as a last resort.

We also know that Carduth did not send a delegation to the Council in Medibaria that preceded the events of the M-A. I imagine this is just because Rystil forgot about the giant empire on Medibaria's doorstep! But in world, we might assume that they're arrogant, self-reliant and independent. They're so much bigger than Medibaria and co. that they think pooling resources would make an insignificant difference to their own efforts. Or perhaps they were not invited - which would imply exceedingly poor relations with Medibaria, or that they have a general bad reputation.

In 'Ashin's Commission', there's an oblique reference. A soldier comments "People around here like to talk about that [something very bad] about as much as they like to talk about what Carduthians do to slaves taken in battle."

It sounds as though they're not unlike the Romans in that they're civilized, enlightened, and cultured, and mercilessly pragmatically brutal when it comes to crushing opposition. I'd guess that the peoples of territories that 'volunteer' to join the Empire are sooner or later granted some form of Carduthian citizenship; those that are conquered wait rather longer, and their defeated military age population ends up enslaved... and something unspecified but nasty happens to them, rumours of which have reached the commonfolk as far west as Fallon.

We don't know whether they have a native slave class too. Either way, we can guess that many people in Carduth worship Naberezhny (the god, not the region in Russia - who named this?): "His followers are many... Worshippers are either those controlling the many or the slaves forced into worship. Many slaves come to embrace Naberezhnyi and seek to gain control over their oppressors through uprisings or single battles." The teachings of the associated Cult of Arrhim are probably influential, particularly with powerful Carduthians. But Carduth isn't an evil empire, ostensibly, so I think if there's an officially favoured religion, it's probably that of Azwan (probably the more LN bits). That would conveniently drive the Naberezhny followers and Arrhim cultists underground; or else there's a simmering religious war between priests of Azwan and Naberezhny held in check by their shared duty to the state and emperor.
 

In the 'unshaped lands' section of the Enworld wiki, there is mention of Donadune, a city in the nation of Grimteine and of Fel Aldinn, a grand dwarven city made of stone, in the nation of Kastavia.

Everything on them can be found in the background of Caerwyn ap Seirol, a paladin who never even made it to the RDI, created by Dravar, who has a grand total of 11 posts to his name.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/1504292-post89.html

Fel Aldinn was the capital of Kastavia. Stone city, dwarf-designed, with a sacred tree in the middle. Lots of revering of Verdante and Sela. Druids aplenty. Sounds like a nice place. 70 years ago, overrun by the nation to the south, Grimteine, which lies at lower elevation, in a more desert region. Grimteine has now absorbed much of former Kastavia. Other portions have been seized by other neighbouring countries.

Grimteine's capital is Donadune, the Glass City, made of sand fused into tempered glass. Ruled by a council of wise men. Strong tradition of wizardry and sorcery. Rumours that a blue dragon taught them how to fuse glass into sand and is the power behind the council. But no one really believes it.

There's really no reason at all to keep this stuff, since the player is long since gone. But it would seem to be a perfect fit for the 'Ushad Map' region. Grimteine could lie west of Ushad, sharing with it the feature of cultural dominance by arcanists, if in a different form. The southern reaches of Grimteine could be part of the Lands of Air desert in which Severus lies, even though Ushad and Severus are really quite close to one another.

And, Nurlan Naibi once - once - mentioned a place called Kahol. Kaholians, when they sing, sing of wine and drinking. And that's all we know of them. Kahol could well be a city or province in Nurlan's native Carduth, but cheerful bibulants don't seem all that Carduthian. It could well fit north-east of Ushad and to the west of the Riverlands, which seems to be a reasonable location for a wine-making area, in which case, we'd be getting close to connecting the 'Ushad Map' to the 'Orussus Region Map.'
 

The unshaped lands section also mentions "A desert plains called the Valdun, which is inhabited solely by nomadic tribes (the Valduni)." It was created by Guilt Puppy.

And that, it would seem, is that.

But GuiltPuppy elsewhere and earlier (Jan 2003) had written up some of his ideas for (a version of) the Valdun (and he's still active at this site, though not LEW!):

http://www.enworld.org/forum/627225-post6.html

The entry begins: "Sandwiched between great kingdoms, the arid desert-plains of the Valdun have remained undisturbed. The land is not greatly desirable, but more importantly, it is defended by one of the most storied, mysterious, and determined folk in the known world."

Which great kingdoms? If we've heard of them at all, they could possibly be Ushad and Grimteine, which would place the Valdun near the centre of the Ushad Map rectangle. If one of these kingdoms is Sairundan, then this places the Valdun in an as yet empty rectangle, either the one north of 'Sairundan' and west of 'Haunted City', or the one east of 'Sairundan' and south of 'Haunted City'.

There's a small difficulty in having Ushad so close to Severus and other arid places, in that in Ushad's one appearance in 'Slaying the Dreamer', though little was seen, it did not come across as a semi-desert land. Anyway, with Sairundan, Gallipona, the Badlands and southern Grimteine, we're gathering quite a collection of such dry lands.

Enworld does seem quite dry, overall. It's a Pangaea bordering a Panthalassa, but we think we know that few rivers flow into the sea near Orussus, or Allimon, or Ravensdale, or from across Sairundan, so most of the water isn't flowing westwards into the known ocean.

The Roars/Grellgo does flow into the Great Sea; the Mystic River flows north off the top of the Earling Map (and perhaps is the 'Great Mother' river Na'yuneth of Ithyria, though it would then be truly immense); the up to seven rivers of the Riverlands... are a mystery to me. There are likely to be rivers that flow to and from the inland sea region, and rivers flowing east from the Stonespike range across Carduth. But as a point of caution - the sheer scale of Enworld means that a perfectly respectable river could be marked as a tiny thread winding no more than 1/5 of the width of a rectangle. It seems likely that the vast majority of rivers in Enworld never reach a sea... they just vanish into fenlands, into sinkholes, or they progressively weaken along their course, ending in a dry bed. Having only lived on small damp islands, I find that quite hard to picture, though I know it happens to various Chinese rivers and the Rio Grande quite often.
 

And they thought you had too much time on your hands before! :)

I'm not sure I see the contradiction between Carduthians and cheerful bibulants. Surely we can picture the Romans finding time to sing about drinking, after a day of killing and slave-taking, yes?

I think I had some other comment, but I forgot what it was. :/
 

I would like to make note that I didn't know I had to reply all when I wrote back to the judges who e-mailed me about my adventure and have had problems with that as it doesn't like @mail or that net spot either. But I have e-mailed Manzantia back with a shorter version and hopefully everyone else can get it forwared to them if you wish not to wait plz let me know and I will send it to you (and try again to send to all)


HM
 

Remove ads

Top