Michael Morris
First Post
Not a bad idea, but not even with the others. This simply won't come up as often as "successful hit", and it's moot in a boss battle.
Dusk: The World of Carthasana
- Thread starter Michael Morris
- Start date
Not a bad idea, but not even with the others. This simply won't come up as often as "successful hit", and it's moot in a boss battle.
Michael Morris
First Post
The Globe
While Dusk will have a new system of some sort, and I'm still up in the air as to whether it will be independent or an add on (I am watching 5e's development closely and hoping it returns to OGL) the topography of late has occupied much of my time. The names below are as the players know these locations. They may change since the next published version of Dusk will be 500 years after the time my players are currently in.
While Dusk will have a new system of some sort, and I'm still up in the air as to whether it will be independent or an add on (I am watching 5e's development closely and hoping it returns to OGL) the topography of late has occupied much of my time. The names below are as the players know these locations. They may change since the next published version of Dusk will be 500 years after the time my players are currently in.
Michael Morris
First Post
Hmm, image got lost in the last batch of server work.
Lower level spells are going to have to pick up some attributes for free as they go up in level I think. A fireball at 9th level and a magic missile at 9th level should both be a legitimate choice. Speaking of Fireball.
Here are effects who's presence is game changing and sorted by the colors that get them:
Valra
Raising the dead
Curing Wounds
Antimagic wards (both general and specific)
Balcra
Teleportation (tactical, later strategic)
Flying
Scrying
Telecommunication
Sodra
Animating the Dead
Level Drain (both overall, but also by stat or ability)
Shunra
Spells that damage an area
Damaging barriers
Abora
Shapeshifting
Regeneration
Also of concern is a division of who does what. For example, Balcra rules over scrying - but Abora dabbles in it by allowing druids to see through the eyes of animal companions. As in the card game, abilities will be primary to one color, and secondary to a second and maybe tertiary to a third if they are critical.
Healing is a rare example of one that goes through all five - Valra recovers stamina quickly and is considered the primary color for healing. Abora recovers health. Sodra can leach either from enemies. Balcra can produce illusory health and Shunra can grant health that persists while the target is enraged.
Flying is a more typical example. Balcra grants this outright, Valra can grant wind walking which is more limited, Abora can fly by shapeshifting into a flying creature.
While the card game informs where the abilities might go, it doesn't dictate them. The d20 game has mechanics that are unique to it, and the card game has mechanics that are likewise specific to it, such as tapping land for mana (which, though flavorful, is a largely a combat pacing consideration).
While my thoughts are meandering, that is one feature of Magic I'd like to incorporate. It does a far better job than d20of preventing fights from opening up with the most powerful possible ability first through the restriction mana presents. Even as recently as Pathfinder, d20 games involve opening up with the biggest gun first and, and high level, the game devolves into rocket tag.
The martial character ability system of gaining combat points will be able to constrain them from opening with most powerful ability first, but what about the spell casters. For storytelling reasons it's more fun for the 9th level uber spell to go off last, not first.
Lower level spells are going to have to pick up some attributes for free as they go up in level I think. A fireball at 9th level and a magic missile at 9th level should both be a legitimate choice. Speaking of Fireball.
Fireball
3rd level Shunran Evocation [Fire]
Range: Encounter
Defense: Reflex 1/2
You evoke a pea sized sphere of flame that flies out to the range you specify and blossoms out to a 20' radius sphere of flame that deals 2d6 + 1d6 / level damage (minimum 5d6).
+2 The spell knocks down those who fail their save and half the damage becomes sonic.
+X You may delay the blast 1 round per level.
While considering this a thought occurred to me - at what levels should certain effect types enter play. 4th edition did a reasonable job of analyzing this, though at times it was too eager to go sacred cow killing. Fireball coming into play changes the game - it gives the wizard a means to affect multiple targets so horde control becomes prevalent.3rd level Shunran Evocation [Fire]
Range: Encounter
Defense: Reflex 1/2
You evoke a pea sized sphere of flame that flies out to the range you specify and blossoms out to a 20' radius sphere of flame that deals 2d6 + 1d6 / level damage (minimum 5d6).
+2 The spell knocks down those who fail their save and half the damage becomes sonic.
+X You may delay the blast 1 round per level.
Here are effects who's presence is game changing and sorted by the colors that get them:
Valra
Raising the dead
Curing Wounds
Antimagic wards (both general and specific)
Balcra
Teleportation (tactical, later strategic)
Flying
Scrying
Telecommunication
Sodra
Animating the Dead
Level Drain (both overall, but also by stat or ability)
Shunra
Spells that damage an area
Damaging barriers
Abora
Shapeshifting
Regeneration
Also of concern is a division of who does what. For example, Balcra rules over scrying - but Abora dabbles in it by allowing druids to see through the eyes of animal companions. As in the card game, abilities will be primary to one color, and secondary to a second and maybe tertiary to a third if they are critical.
Healing is a rare example of one that goes through all five - Valra recovers stamina quickly and is considered the primary color for healing. Abora recovers health. Sodra can leach either from enemies. Balcra can produce illusory health and Shunra can grant health that persists while the target is enraged.
Flying is a more typical example. Balcra grants this outright, Valra can grant wind walking which is more limited, Abora can fly by shapeshifting into a flying creature.
While the card game informs where the abilities might go, it doesn't dictate them. The d20 game has mechanics that are unique to it, and the card game has mechanics that are likewise specific to it, such as tapping land for mana (which, though flavorful, is a largely a combat pacing consideration).
While my thoughts are meandering, that is one feature of Magic I'd like to incorporate. It does a far better job than d20of preventing fights from opening up with the most powerful possible ability first through the restriction mana presents. Even as recently as Pathfinder, d20 games involve opening up with the biggest gun first and, and high level, the game devolves into rocket tag.
The martial character ability system of gaining combat points will be able to constrain them from opening with most powerful ability first, but what about the spell casters. For storytelling reasons it's more fun for the 9th level uber spell to go off last, not first.
Ramaster
Adventurer
Something like the 13th Age Escalation die, maybe?
Like, on the first round, the die is set on 1 and you can only use lvl 1 abilities/abilities that cost 1 mana, etc. And then the die starts increasing and you get access to better skills.
Perhaps the use of the most powerful skills shouldn't be forbidden until the die gets to the right number, you just get a huge penalty until it does.
You can call it a "Mana Die", or something. I do realize that this is a big rules difference over traditional d20, but in order to enforce this kind of gameplay, a big and relevant rules change is required.
In other news, my MTG-based RPG just entered playtest phase!
Michael Morris
First Post
The problem with a charge up die is two fold. First, players will argue that they should be able to charge up while the enemy approaches and stay charged up between fights. Second, and more critically, most fights only run 3 to 5 rounds.
I'm still mulling this over while doing other things.
I'm still mulling this over while doing other things.
Michael Morris
First Post
Played around with the 5e playtest materials last weekend. I like the direction that's going, so I may merge some ideas in. If I do that I'll not be able to publish it unless the OGL is reinstated.
Michael Morris
First Post
A Possible New Core Mechanic
Over the last couple weeks my group now has two [notranslate]Pathfinder[/notranslate] games including the Dusk one. The old Dusk Player's Guide is falling apart so I need to reprint it. To reprint it means consolidating the liner notes I've made for [notranslate]Pathfinder[/notranslate], and while I'm at it I may as well remove the artwork that prompted the Cease & Desist. Since my [notranslate]Pathfinder[/notranslate] game still has at least another year I'm going to put out [notranslate]Pathfinder[/notranslate] Dusk sometime next month and start a facebook group for it.
Meanwhile, Next Dusk, which is what this thread has been about, may have gotten a new core mechanic inspired from the D&D Next playtest and a detour through my other favorite system - Savage Worlds. As those involved in the playtest know, there are now skill dice. My initial reaction - not D&D - set it down and did something else. Then my brain got to thinking..
In Savage Worlds you roll a die and a wild die for your skill checks. Ability scores in Savage Worlds are largely meaningless beyond their ability to constrain and change skill point costs. It costs twice as much to raise a skill to a higher die than your ability.
Savage Worlds is a fun system, but it's math is awful and hard to predict, especially with its exploding die system. This unevenness precluded it from being a core system I'd want to use so I've been sticking towards something d20 related, but it's been there in the back of my mind. Then about 2 hours after reading D&D next something clicked
d20 + ability die + skill die
There are five ability dice in Savage Worlds and also five skill dice (there's that number again) d4, d6, d8, d10, d12. The addition of a d20 widens out the spread so that modifiers to rolls aren't as swingy as in Savage Worlds and the DM has a more logical set of difficulty classes, or target numbers, to choose from.
So enough on how I arrived at this, here's an analysis of the candidate core mechanic above. The system is ability centric. Climb a wall? d20 + strength die. Balance on a ledge? d20+dexterity die. Skilled at climbing? d20 + relevant ability die + climbing skill die.
The difficulty classes fall on multiples of 3 and are based on who has a at least 50% chance at the check
I've tooled around with this in my head some and discussed with my group. It seems solid enough - thoughts anyone?
Over the last couple weeks my group now has two [notranslate]Pathfinder[/notranslate] games including the Dusk one. The old Dusk Player's Guide is falling apart so I need to reprint it. To reprint it means consolidating the liner notes I've made for [notranslate]Pathfinder[/notranslate], and while I'm at it I may as well remove the artwork that prompted the Cease & Desist. Since my [notranslate]Pathfinder[/notranslate] game still has at least another year I'm going to put out [notranslate]Pathfinder[/notranslate] Dusk sometime next month and start a facebook group for it.
Meanwhile, Next Dusk, which is what this thread has been about, may have gotten a new core mechanic inspired from the D&D Next playtest and a detour through my other favorite system - Savage Worlds. As those involved in the playtest know, there are now skill dice. My initial reaction - not D&D - set it down and did something else. Then my brain got to thinking..
In Savage Worlds you roll a die and a wild die for your skill checks. Ability scores in Savage Worlds are largely meaningless beyond their ability to constrain and change skill point costs. It costs twice as much to raise a skill to a higher die than your ability.
Savage Worlds is a fun system, but it's math is awful and hard to predict, especially with its exploding die system. This unevenness precluded it from being a core system I'd want to use so I've been sticking towards something d20 related, but it's been there in the back of my mind. Then about 2 hours after reading D&D next something clicked
d20 + ability die + skill die
There are five ability dice in Savage Worlds and also five skill dice (there's that number again) d4, d6, d8, d10, d12. The addition of a d20 widens out the spread so that modifiers to rolls aren't as swingy as in Savage Worlds and the DM has a more logical set of difficulty classes, or target numbers, to choose from.
So enough on how I arrived at this, here's an analysis of the candidate core mechanic above. The system is ability centric. Climb a wall? d20 + strength die. Balance on a ledge? d20+dexterity die. Skilled at climbing? d20 + relevant ability die + climbing skill die.
The difficulty classes fall on multiples of 3 and are based on who has a at least 50% chance at the check
- DC 9 - trivial - Anyone should hit this more than half the time, even on a check of sheer luck (d20 alone)
- DC 12 - very easy - An unskilled character with minimal ability (d4) will roll 13 50% of the time.
- DC 15 - easy - An minimally skilled character with minimal ability (d4+d4) rolls an average of 15.5, so can hit this DC half the time. An unskilled character with excellent ability (d10) has similar but, thanks to bell curving, more variant odds of hitting the same.
- DC 18 - moderate - An average skilled and abilitied character (d6+d6) rolls an average of 17.5, so can hit this just under half the time.
- DC 21 - hard - Exceptionally ability and skill can hit (d10+d10) can hit this half the time. The unskilled character with minimal ability hits this on a roll of 20 (since the d4 cannot roll less than 1)
- DC 24 - very hard - With an average roll of 23.5 for d20+2d12 this DC is just slightly above what they can hit half the time. The unskilled character with minimal ability can hit this but must roll 20 and 4, which is a 1 in 800 chance.
- DC 27 - formidable - This is likely the highest DC that should ever be asked of characters under this system. Because of how bell curves work, every point of DC raise past this point is an exponential increase in difficulty in the odds.
I've tooled around with this in my head some and discussed with my group. It seems solid enough - thoughts anyone?
Last edited:
Michael Morris
First Post
Today I'm going to go over some ideas I introduced to the group on Attacks - and Evasion. I ran a couple one shots with the core mechanic above and things worked out very nicely.
In most skill based systems, like Savage Worlds and GURPS, attacking things is a skill like any other. The problem with that is pacing can get out of whack and if you build a character with no fighting skill they can quickly become the load. To some extent classes help prevent that.
So, fighting - that would be the fighter's province. Rather than have a base attack bonus, the fighter has an attack die that goes up like so..
Level - die
1 - d4
2 - d6
3 - d8
4 - d10
5 - d12
6 - d12+d4
7 - d12+d6
8 - d12+d8
9 - d12+d10
10 - 2d12
And this pattern repeats indefinitely, with a 20th level character rolling 4d12.
To prevent AC inflation and keep the AC's between 12-30 like everything else, there's a couple of wrinkles in the above. First, when a fighter is rolling more than one attack die he takes the best result from among them. While it is true that the d12 coming up 1 and the d4 coming up 4 won't happen often, it will come up. The 20th level fighter taking the best of 4d12 rolls will roll high very consistently.
In addition to the attack die a d20 and an ability die (DEX for ranged/finesse, STR for melee) will be cast. A 10th level fighter with a 12 strength rolls d20+1d12+ the best of 2d12.
If the fighter has multiple targets he can assign the attack dice to the targets individually.
When you hit you roll damage of course. That damage is the weapon's damage die + strength die + all of the attack dice. So a 10th level fighter with a d12 strength and a long sword rolls 3d12+d8 for damage. If he attacks two separate targets he deals 2d12+d8 to each.
I'm thinking evasion (or saving throws) would work the same. Thoughts? I really could use some feedback - I feel as if I'm writing to an empty room here.
In most skill based systems, like Savage Worlds and GURPS, attacking things is a skill like any other. The problem with that is pacing can get out of whack and if you build a character with no fighting skill they can quickly become the load. To some extent classes help prevent that.
So, fighting - that would be the fighter's province. Rather than have a base attack bonus, the fighter has an attack die that goes up like so..
Level - die
1 - d4
2 - d6
3 - d8
4 - d10
5 - d12
6 - d12+d4
7 - d12+d6
8 - d12+d8
9 - d12+d10
10 - 2d12
And this pattern repeats indefinitely, with a 20th level character rolling 4d12.
To prevent AC inflation and keep the AC's between 12-30 like everything else, there's a couple of wrinkles in the above. First, when a fighter is rolling more than one attack die he takes the best result from among them. While it is true that the d12 coming up 1 and the d4 coming up 4 won't happen often, it will come up. The 20th level fighter taking the best of 4d12 rolls will roll high very consistently.
In addition to the attack die a d20 and an ability die (DEX for ranged/finesse, STR for melee) will be cast. A 10th level fighter with a 12 strength rolls d20+1d12+ the best of 2d12.
If the fighter has multiple targets he can assign the attack dice to the targets individually.
When you hit you roll damage of course. That damage is the weapon's damage die + strength die + all of the attack dice. So a 10th level fighter with a d12 strength and a long sword rolls 3d12+d8 for damage. If he attacks two separate targets he deals 2d12+d8 to each.
I'm thinking evasion (or saving throws) would work the same. Thoughts? I really could use some feedback - I feel as if I'm writing to an empty room here.
Michael Morris
First Post
Ok, what's going on here? I started this thread to mull over ideas that may or may not take shape as a finished product, not as a product page. The format is now very reminiscent of product pages I've seen on tf2maps.net and vbulletin.org. Not that that's a bad thing or a bad idea for the site in general, but I'm not sure it works for this thread.
Also, to make this work, I'd need to rewrite the first post of the thread considerably...
Also, to make this work, I'd need to rewrite the first post of the thread considerably...
Yeah, I think this needs to be two forums. I'll work on that over the next few days; just carry on as you were.
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