D&D General The rise and fall of D&D in Japan

[GreyLord]

An opinionated take on the matter.

I feel many Japanese are more traditional than not. This indicates, in gaming at least, that they prefer rules to stay close to what they feel the rules should be.

Thus, as the D&D that they first knew was TSR's D&D and AD&D, when rules differentiate from that very much...they will not see it as the same game. They will more likely see it as someone trying to cheat them or trying to sell them something else. Trying to sell 3.5 (and even more so 4e ane 5e) as D&D when they understand D&D as the way TSR made it is like trying to tell them a wooden chair is a Toyota Supra. They aren't going to buy your chair no matter how well it is made.

Sword World came out as what it was. It's stayed as it is. Even with minor changes it's stayed true to what it actually has been in the past.

For those who are more traditional, this is rather important. The D&D market is lost at this point because those who originally played it are no longer playing and wouldn't play the new stuff that is called D&D, and the younger audiences already have their game.

Another area which it fails in Japan is how well they can relate to D&D tropes. They have been introduced to the ideas of Sword World, they understand tentacles (It's japan, people), they understand alot of things that are popular...but what exactly would they think of a Tiefling...or playing Orcs (what are seen as things such as Oni and demon like creatures to them in many places??). I don't think it's going to be as appealing to their culture as other areas.

It's not crafted to their experiences or culture. What is the benefit of a buy in from them? I think as D&D has deviated further and further from what they were originally introduced to as D&D, and as it's deviated further from culture they can relate to, it's fallen in popularity. 3e was closer to D&D than 5e has been, and in some ways 4e was even closer to what they may see as D&D or RPGs (I know, that may seem odd, but this is not US culture we are talking about).

As Western morals and ideals have deviated more from Japan and East Asia over the past decade (remember all the Americans complaining that they hate the term Oriental...that's not exactly a sentiment shared by those who are not Americans and are actually IN Asia...as Asia is a large place and Chinese and Japanese don't really relate to being West Russian or Persian so calling them all Asian is actually more offensive to some of the peoples of Asia) the way things are seen has also deviated. AS things are made more to placate a Western audience, in some ways it also alienates the Eastern audience (and it makes sense to cater more towards a Western audience as more sales come from the West than the East). What may appeal to Americans is not necessarily what appeals to others.

It is possible to make games with universal worldwide appeal, but that doesn't seem to be WotC's target recently from what I can tell. They are catering to the markets which currently have the greater sales, and if that means focusing more on American audiences, well, follow the money...right?

 

[GrimCo]

D&D is heavily based on Western fantasy tropes. It's quasi european medieval setting with knights and dragons and monsters based on folk tales. It doesn't have that much in common with japanese culture. It's just not that relatable. That would be my guess.

As for other localisations. I know there is Italian and German. Younger folks who speak english, usually just buy books in english, since those can be found online with discounts, while localized versions are pretty much always full price.

 

[Clint_L]

An opinionated take on the matter.

I feel many Japanese are more traditional than not. This indicates, in gaming at least, that they prefer rules to stay close to what they feel the rules should be.

Are you Japanese? Because your argument is based on an awful lot of assumptions.

I think it's weird for a bunch of non-Japanese folks to be speculating about this topic. There are a few folks contributing who are Japanese or who have at least lived in Japan, but other than that, maybe we should hold off on analyzing Japanese culture re. RPGs.

In reading the OP's article, it seems like that initial exposure to D&D led to the rise of home-grown RPGs, which have become much more popular. This seems like a natural course of events.

 

[see]

A for other languages, I've heard (unsubstantiated) that Hasbro/WotC has ended localization efforts & sales in Brazil.

It's substantiated.

I suspect their localization efforts outside of the European Languages are miniscule. Even in the euro-region, I'd be surprised if they translated to anything other than French, German, and Spanish.

They are continuing to translate into "French, German, Italian, Japanese, and Spanish."

 

[Tonguez]

D&D is heavily based on Western fantasy tropes. It's quasi european medieval setting with knights and dragons and monsters based on folk tales. It doesn't have that much in common with japanese culture. It's just not that relatable. That would be my guess.

As for other localisations. I know there is Italian and German. Younger folks who speak english, usually just buy books in english, since those can be found online with discounts, while localized versions are pretty much always full price.

Have you watched any anime? Played any Japanese video games? Are you familiar with Record of Lodross War? Japanese have been exposed to Western culture for a long time and happily consume its tropes

 

[GreyLord]

Are you Japanese? Because your argument is based on an awful lot of assumptions.

I think it's weird for a bunch of non-Japanese folks to be speculating about this topic. There are a few folks contributing who are Japanese or who have at least lived in Japan, but other than that, maybe we should hold off on analyzing Japanese culture re. RPGs.

In reading the OP's article, it seems like that initial exposure to D&D led to the rise of home-grown RPGs, which have become much more popular. This seems like a natural course of events.

I am a POC, but not Japanese myself. I play RPGs with a bunch of Japanese gamers (one of the groups I game with, but it's sporadic and only around once a month at most when we meet, normally it's online these days) who voice their opinions on various RPGs if that counts at all, but of course, that's anecdotal.

What I stated is NOT outright stated by any of them (Actually, their frustrations with some of the outrage of Americans over Oriental Adventures and other items ARE indicated in my post directly though, and some of their thoughts on how Americans and the West try to use certain terms in relation to their ethnicity and backgrounds). Their preferences also influenced what I wrote.

IF we play a Western RPG it tends to be AD&D (1e or 2e, leans towards 1e which is what we are playing) or something older (edit add: as in, an older RPG such as something from the 80s or 90s). They don't play 5e. Only reason they play 3e is they DO like the Oriental Adventures and such (or anything that reflects Japanese influence or culture in the West is something they get a kick out of I think...that's more of an impression I get from playing with them over the years). Ironically, we don't PLAY 3e Oriental Adventures though, it's more of a...interest point they bring up occasionally on why 3e is interesting. I don't think I've ever played anything beyond low level 3e with them in the past decade (when we have given it a shot, normally we play shorter rpg adventures that take one to three sessions these days, perhaps that would change if we had a more frequent gaming session). Interestingly enough I think that attitude is something a lot of Asian-Americans may find horrifying though, which would...to me...illustrate the divide of culture and morals we have between those in the East and those in the West.

There are other RPGs we play, but nothing that is popular on these forums (at least I don't think they are popular on these forums, don't see much discussion on them).

Edit: I should also add, as my points are based on an anecdotal observation, these are ALL older gamers. I don't think any of them are under the age of 45, so my views may not be reflective of the younger gaming audiences in Japan or East Asia.

 

[DarkCrisis]

Are you Japanese? Because your argument is based on an awful lot of assumptions.

I think it's weird for a bunch of non-Japanese folks to be speculating about this topic. There are a few folks contributing who are Japanese or who have at least lived in Japan, but other than that, maybe we should hold off on analyzing Japanese culture re. RPGs.

In reading the OP's article, it seems like that initial exposure to D&D led to the rise of home-grown RPGs, which have become much more popular. This seems like a natural course of events.

After you watch enough anime, like you’ve lived there your whole life.

For example, did you know most nerdy guys end up with a whole harem of girls? One or more of which may be magical. Facts.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

The points of view by a native about his own country, a compatriot living in another country and a foreigner living in the country could be radically different, and everybody may be right.

Today the isekai is a very popular subgenre, but the brand D&D is totally forgotten. And Japanese would rather their own style, for example they are mainly focused into humans, and almost always the demihumans are "kemonomimi", humanoids with animal ears (usually feline). A lot of times the main demihumans are monster girls who are main character's girlfriends.

And it is not a group like the standars of D&D but an overpowered main character and his harem.

The anime doesn't always the true Japanese reality, for example the behavior of some characters is radically different to how a true Japanese would act.

Some Japanese IPs could be adapted to D&D as 3PP settings, but they would need a complete reboot to can use the crunch elements (PC species and classes, for example). Why? To sell in the international market outside Japan. Some manga titles could survive enoughly thanks the good sales in the international market.

* If you want to learn Japanese, the web Duolingo could be very useful.

 

[beta-ray]

D&D is heavily based on Western fantasy tropes. It's quasi european medieval setting with knights and dragons and monsters based on folk tales. It doesn't have that much in common with japanese culture. It's just not that relatable. That would be my guess.

So are many fantasy anime and manga. Tropes-wise I don't think they have much problems with that.

 

[Iosue]

Thus, as the D&D that they first knew was TSR's D&D and AD&D, when rules differentiate from that very much...they will not see it as the same game. They will more likely see it as someone trying to cheat them or trying to sell them something else. Trying to sell 3.5 (and even more so 4e ane 5e) as D&D when they understand D&D as the way TSR made it is like trying to tell them a wooden chair is a Toyota Supra. They aren't going to buy your chair no matter how well it is made.

Sword World came out as what it was. It's stayed as it is. Even with minor changes it's stayed true to what it actually has been in the past.

In terms of rules and especially the lore, Sword World has changed as much, if not more so, than D&D. Change has been an issue with D&D in Japan, but its not changes itself as much as the frequency of changes over the years, as I'll detail below.

Another area which it fails in Japan is how well they can relate to D&D tropes. They have been introduced to the ideas of Sword World, they understand tentacles (It's japan, people), they understand alot of things that are popular...but what exactly would they think of a Tiefling...or playing Orcs (what are seen as things such as Oni and demon like creatures to them in many places??). I don't think it's going to be as appealing to their culture as other areas.

Not only did D&D do quite well when it was originally introduced to Japan, but Sword World was originally a straight calque of D&D tropes to a non-TSR ruleset, and it became the most popular TRPG in Japan by a wide margin. In video games, as well, Legend of Zelda, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest (Dragon Warrior in the US) these dealt almost entirely in D&D tropes, and were huge successes.

Nor is this just about the 80s and 90s; the most popular anime at the moment is Frieren: Beyond Journey's End, which is pure medieval European fantasy and so steeped in D&D tropes that a mimic was voted the third most popular character.

The point about Tieflings and Orcs is particularly odd, given that Sword World 2.0 introduced the Nightmare race, which are essentially Sword World Tieflings. (Monster characters have also long been a thing.)

It's not about tropes. The Japanese are such mass producers and consumers of media that it's never about the tropes. It's worth pointing out that Masaki's article doesn't talk about D&D's tropes other than to note their significant impact on Japanese pop culture.

The reason D&D is not the dominant player in the Japanese TRPG scene is because it has, since its earliest days, positioned itself as a boutique product in a niche market. This was fine in the 80s when everyone was doing box sets, but not in the 90s, when the TRPG market responded to a recession by creating cheaper, more cost-effective products.

Let's say I'm a young, Japanese would-be RPG gamer looking to buy my first game. I look at the offerings from Wizards of the Coast. Ooh, I can get the 5e Players Handbook from Amazon for 5,958 yen (39 USD). Or, I can get the Sword World 2.5 Rulebook I paperback for 990 yen (6.50 USD), and I don't even need to get funny dice. Or, heck, I'll get a Starter Set! The D&D Starter Set retails for 2,200 yen (15.50 USD).

Or I can get a Sword World 2.5 Starter Set for 3,850 yen (25.50 USD). D&D is cheaper! But what do I get for that 2,200 yen? An adventure booklet, a rulebook booklet, 5 pre-gen characters sheets, and a set of dice. What do I get for the 3,850 yen Sword World starter set? An adventure booklet, a rulebook booklet, pre-gen dry-erase character cards, 10 six-sided dice, cards for all monsters in the adventure, item cards to go with the character cards, dungeon tiles for all the rooms in the adventure, cut-out characters stands, two post-card size dry-erase white boards, and 5 dry erase markers. That is easily more value for my money.

The fact is, aside from a 4 year period in the 90s, D&D has never adjusted its physical products to match the demands of the Japanese TRPG market. A Japanese D&D player gets the same thing as a D&D player in any other region, and that has its own kind of value, but it means books that are hugely overpriced compared to local fare, or box sets that under-deliver compared to its competitors.

Add to this how the Japanese D&D fanbase, such as it is, has been repeatedly jerked around by WotC. From its licensing deal with Hobby Japan killing the previously localized Rules Cyclopedia, to the switch to 3.5 just as the 3.0 books were getting their Japanese release in 2003, to the switch to 4e a few years later, to the switch to 5e a few years after that (without even a Japanese release of the books until 2017!), to canceling planned Japanese releases of Tasha's and Icewind Dale in November 2021 so that WotC could take translations entirely in-house and start the release schedule all over again in December 2022. (And a few months after that announcing development of entirely revised core books!)

Basically, Sword World overtook D&D in 1989, the bubble economy popped and D&D's Japanese publisher went under shortly after that, and the publication of D&D has been in turmoil ever since.