D&D General D&D 2024 does not deserve to succeed

[teitan]

Conan really jumped the shark when that happened.

shakes fist at Marvel Comics Savage Avengers

 

[teitan]

While we're on the subject of jumping the shark...Let's not forget Conan is officially a member of the Avengers...
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Ha not now, Marvel doesn't have the licensing anymore! Whew.

 

[MerricB]

I started playing 1e in 1983 and we were there already, so I think a bit before the mid 80's.

If you just look at the adventures, G1-3 already has you as heroes protecting the realm. And these are amongst the first published!

Saltmarsh trilogy (1981) - heroic
Against the Cult of the Reptile God (1982) - heroic

But the real shift in public adventures comes when Tracy Hickman starts. The Desert of Desolation (1982-3), Ravenloft (1983), Rahasia (1984), and then Dragonlance are heroic in tone. (Which is to say, they have strong moral cores).

Following the Dragonlance era, adventures start moving more from "location to explore, possibly with some plot" to "plot, with locations along the way".

But even with the older style of adventures, there is often an underpinning of "assume party are heroic", such as in Keep on the Borderlands, which is framed as Law vs Chaos. The material is much less helpful if the party decides to take over the humanoids and lead them on a siege of the keep! Likewise with the Village of Hommlet. The cultists are there to be fought, not aided.

 

[Mannahnin]

If you just look at the adventures, G1-3 already has you as heroes protecting the realm. And these are amongst the first published!

Against the Giants has you heroic in that the suggested level is at least 9th (and recommendation is for at least nine characters of that level!), but doesn't assume that you're morally heroic. The rulers threaten you with getting your heads cut off if you fail to do as they command.

Saltmarsh trilogy (1981) - heroic
Against the Cult of the Reptile God (1982) - heroic

But the real shift in public adventures comes when Tracy Hickman starts. The Desert of Desolation (1982-3), Ravenloft (1983), Rahasia (1984), and then Dragonlance are heroic in tone. (Which is to say, they have strong moral cores).

Following the Dragonlance era, adventures start moving more from "location to explore, possibly with some plot" to "plot, with locations along the way".

But even with the older style of adventures, there is often an underpinning of "assume party are heroic", such as in Keep on the Borderlands, which is framed as Law vs Chaos. The material is much less helpful if the party decides to take over the humanoids and lead them on a siege of the keep! Likewise with the Village of Hommlet. The cultists are there to be fought, not aided.

I would say they expect you to be goodly, or at least to fight the baddies, but they also explicitly support playing as at least antiheroes as well. The Village of Hommlet and Orlane, for example, give all the details about exactly how much treasure the villagers have and where they hide it, so that PCs can steal it if they so choose. These early modules with towns (including Keep on the Borderlands) give you the details you need if PC thieves or other villains wish to rob and pillage them.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

The rulers threaten you with getting your heads cut off if you fail to do as they command.

So, the Suicide Squad. Anti-heroes are still heroes.

 

[Mannahnin]

So, the Suicide Squad. Anti-heroes are still heroes.

If there were no difference the prefix wouldn't be there.

This reads like you replied before getting to the second half of my comment.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

If there were no difference the prefix wouldn't be there.

This reads like you replied before getting to the second half of my comment.

And anti hero is a hero with negative qualities.

Just an an anti-villain is a villain with positive qualities.

They are still heroes and villains, but with qualifiers.

 

[Oofta]

And anti hero is a hero with negative qualities.

Just an an anti-villain is a villain with positive qualities.

They are still heroes and villains, but with qualifiers.

That's kind of like saying a nonfat food has fat in it. It's not how qualifiers work.

 

[Mannahnin]

And anti hero is a hero with negative qualities.

Just an an anti-villain is a villain with positive qualities.

They are still heroes and villains, but with qualifiers.

How about a villain who's forced for the purposes of a tournament scenario into serving a good cause?

 

[Paul Farquhar]

How about a villain who's forced for the purposes of a tournament scenario into serving a good cause?

Then the are an anti-hero for the duration of the scenario.