D&D 5E Lost Mine of Phandelver - comments and complaints after read-through (spoilers)

The Hitcher

Explorer
That's cause RE is a lot more PC than I am. I call a lousy idea lousy, I sometimes don't look for a nicer way to say it. RE is also a lot more patient pointing out the weaknesses in an idea. I apologize if I offended you.

Game on. :D

Apology accepted. I find satire much more fun, myself: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showth...-Dungeons-and-Dragons-Doesn-t-Please-Everyone!

Don't worry, Ruin Explorer also annoys the hell out of me - he waffles on like the Dickens on the most tedious points (no offence, RE).

I'm sure I'll work you both into my next piece.
 

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KarinsDad

Adventurer
I don't think the presence of the dragon itself is flawed design, but some of the circumstances surrounding it, such as the RP hook to slay it, really is. The druid's requirement that the PCs get the dragon to leave is also perfectly fine as an adventure goal.

The only part I have a problem with is that the adventure doesn't even hint that there may be a non-violent way to get the dragon to leave. The only option provided is to beat it down to a certain HP total. Not only is that extremely stupid for a party of that level to try it is also BORING. The dragon is a frightening combatant but it IS young and inexperienced. Clever adventurers may think of a way to get it to leave without having to fight.

Dragons like flattery, and young ones are more egotistical and likely to succumb to it than older and wiser wyrms. What if the PCs clear out Craigmaw castle and convince the dragon to move there instead? Surely a castle is more befitting a lair for so magnificent a dragon than some glorified tree house? What happens when the dragon gets older and can't fit in that puny little lair? Certainly such an awesome dragon will amass much treasure, the castle will provide ample space to store it. ;)

Heck the PCs can tell the dragon that they cleared out the castle JUST FOR HIM!

A good adventure will provide difficult obstacles and multiple ways to overcome them. This particular challenge only offered combat as a solution. I can roll with it and offer other options as an experienced DM. The intended audience for this adventure may not know other options exist.

This. 90%. The presence of the dragon is not a flawed design, but the HD of the dragon is.


The problem with the dragon is that even if WotC did offer suggestions on how to bypass the dragon without combat, there really are only a few outcomes with this particular monster as designed (i.e. 16 HD).

1) Bypass the encounter completely.
2) Negotiate.
3) If combat occurs, a few PC deaths or TPK.

The first two are fine, but the second one does not preclude the possibility of the third one because it is partially dependent on player actions. Few inexperienced DMs (and maybe few experienced DMs) will have the dragon only fight the PC who instigated the fight and very few experienced players (let alone inexperienced ones) will not help a fellow PC if a fight breaks out.

Even an experienced DM can try for number 2 and find himself in number 3, hence the reason I suggested to lower the HD and abilities of the dragon. That way, if a fight does break out, a few PCs may or may not be dead, but the dragon might either be dead or fled. Such an outcome is ok if the DM gave the players several foreshadowings that the Dragon was not to be messed with. A few PCs down (maybe), a few survive.

Even this idea could result in a TPK, but at least it was a TPK that the players had a chance of winning instead of a gotcha where there was no chance.
 

Don't worry, Ruin Explorer also annoys the hell out of me - he waffles on like the Dickens on the most tedious points (no offence, RE).

Well, I never!

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Ceylin

First Post
I'm thinking I'll just make the Druid discourage the players from trying to attack it. That any attempt to do so would likely end in their deaths. Maybe the bigger RP experience here is seeing if the Folk Hero char tries to get the party to attempt something stupid.
 

Nemio

First Post
I'm thinking I'll just make the Druid discourage the players from trying to attack it. That any attempt to do so would likely end in their deaths. Maybe the bigger RP experience here is seeing if the Folk Hero char tries to get the party to attempt something stupid.

I don't have the Starter Set yet so I can't check but what does the druid say exactly?
That they have to slay the dragon or chase him off?
And if it's the last option, does he mention if they should use force or other means?


I'm also thinking about mentioning to the players that their PC's know that there are dragons with different personalities and that some of them might actually be good.
They can also determine this by the color of the dragon, which they don't know yet at the beginning I believe.

So until they meet the dragon or the druid they might not yet know what they're up against, right?
Btw, am I correct to assume that dragon personalities / colors is something that is general knowledge in the FR?

I really love the lore but this makes it quite intimidating for a new guy.
By doing all this double checking to play it "correctly" I'm already doing way more than someone who just wants to pick up the Starter Set and play it by the book which shouldn't be the case.
The book should cover everything so noone misses out.
 

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