D&D 5E Atheism/Agnosticism in 5e?

Snapdragyn said:

Do we yet know if it's possible (RAW - every table will differ, of course) for a character to refuse to worship any deity in 5e?

I'm working on a warlock character, & I think he might be of the 'these beings are indeed powerful, but not truly 'gods' in the way that word is commonly used' bent - if permitted.

With the looser rules, is this just more likely to fall into an individual DM question?

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I haven't read this thread, but my quick response is: of course. I don't know why it wouldn't be an option.

As you said, every table will handle things differently, but there's no reason to think - rules-wise - this isn't a problem.

jadrax said:

In most D&D settings, when you head of the pearly gates, there is a good chance you may spend a few days there before being summoned back t the local temple by your friendly priest. So there is not really the great sense of the unknown about what happens when you die.

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I don't know about that. If I'm a first level adventurer -- or a zero level nobody -- I likely don't know anyone who's been resurrected. I know stories and rumors and what the local cleric is claiming is the truth -- which may conflict with the cleric at the temple in the next village is saying.

Is there something after death? Well, sure -- there's enough stories about the undead to prove that.

Should I automatically sign up with whatever the local cleric is pushing? Probably not, especially if he's never seen someone raised from the dead himself and admits, under questioning, that he's not capable of doing so when asked.

And if he says "yes, but you need to pony up this expensive material component," that may well have the opposite effect for me: A "god" that has to be bribed with more money than most entire communities possess to resurrect someone, yet is said to be a god of good is likely one with more than a few skeptics.

Unless I am playing a cleric my characters typically just ignore any deities. The one time I played a cleric it was in 3.5 and I tried to not have a god since the rules allow for that but the DM ruled that the character had to choose a god to worship.

Michael Morris said:

Now, a word on atheism and agnosticism. Atheism is the position that gods don't exist - the reverse is theism, god(s) do exist. Agnosticism is the position that you can't prove that god(s) exist, gnosticism is the claim that you can indeed prove their existence. They are not the same question, but in non-theological circles they get conflated (badly) into one by laymen. It's a minor pet peeve of mine.

Most atheists are gnostics - they believe the lack of evidence for gods is itself proof of their nonexistence. The same holds true for most theists - they believe they can prove god exists, though to date all proofs ever offered have been subjective at best. Most agnostics choose not to believe in god(s) for lack of proof otherwise, I personally am an agnostic that chooses to believe in God despite the lack of objective proof. My logic for this lies outside the scope of what the forum rules will allow.

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Let's clear a couple of things: (a)theism is about belief - atheists don't believe, theists believe. Atheists don't deny gods, they don't believe in them. Just like you don't deny faeries and leprechauns, you just don't believe in them. (A)gnosticism is about knowledge. They're on different axis and pretty much every atheist is an agnostic atheist when it comes to some god concepts. Some god concepts are falsifiable, some are not.

Gnostic traditions actually have great stuff for D&D games. Check it out on wikipedia.

Secondly, people here seem to talk about the game's canon or metaknowledge. In the context of the game I think the most important stuff is how characters and to some extent npcs perceive the world. To the dirt farmer who has never seen magic, a non-magical priest's word is as true as any other priest's. His remote home village's priest might have made everything up, might have truthfully passed on the knowledge of a gnostic mystic or anything between. People are very superstitious in stressful situations like in a violent feudal society, and will probably invent lots of extra-theological rituals and mix several myths together. Even if there are definite divine entities that care about what people believe or don't, there might be trickster gods and their agents, huckster selling "holy items" who will invent stories, etc.

I think this is the meat of the game when it comes to religions in a roleplaying game. I'm agreeing with some designers about rpg theory which states what isn't spoken or brought up in the game (discussions between the players and gm) doesn't exist. You don't need to invent a golden palace and seventeen dimensions for your gods if they never come up in the game.

jadrax said:

The main issue to my mind that's being skipped over is the afterlife.

In most D&D settings, when you head of the pearly gates, there is a good chance you may spend a few days there before being summoned back t the local temple by your friendly priest. So there is not really the great sense of the unknown about what happens when you die.

So you die as a Atheist in the Forgotten Realms, you get taken to the wall of the faithless, a nice devil has a chat about this being the last time to sell your soul, assuming a Demon did not kidnap you on the way to the wall. And then just as your getting to hammer time, you end up back in Waterdeep....

That's the sort of thing that I think might make you reflect upon your beliefs.

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Yeah, I imagine there are plenty of folks who grudgingly "worship" a god under duress given that knowledge.

When I have run FR I always ditch the Wall of the Faithless since I find it unpleasant/unjust. The same is true of all the games I've played in what is ostensibly the FR setting; it's a component of the setting DMs I've played with never use. I wonder how popular it is/how often is is actually used in home games. It is clearly divisive enough to serve as the main plot point in the best Neverwinter video game ever produced.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:

I don't know about that. If I'm a first level adventurer -- or a zero level nobody -- I likely don't know anyone who's been resurrected. I know stories and rumors and what the local cleric is claiming is the truth -- which may conflict with the cleric at the temple in the next village is saying.

Is there something after death? Well, sure -- there's enough stories about the undead to prove that.

Should I automatically sign up with whatever the local cleric is pushing? Probably not, especially if he's never seen someone raised from the dead himself and admits, under questioning, that he's not capable of doing so when asked.

And if he says "yes, but you need to pony up this expensive material component," that may well have the opposite effect for me: A "god" that has to be bribed with more money than most entire communities possess to resurrect someone, yet is said to be a god of good is likely one with more than a few skeptics.

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True, but you are not going to stay first level for very long.

My point is not so much that its hard to start as an Atheist, I just think its hard to stay one as exploration is a big part of the game, and as you travel beyond the material plane your pretty much going to find that the gods do indeed rule the afterlife.

Of course, assuming they have not changed it from the Alpha, if you are a Wizard you can just cast Legend Lore at level 9 and it pretty much looks like it will answer the question of if any named NPC is truly a God or not.

ppaladin123 said:

Yeah, I imagine there are plenty of folks who grudgingly "worship" a god under duress given that knowledge.

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Pascal's Wager works at least as well in a D&D universe as it does in any other.

jadrax said:

I just think its hard to stay one as exploration is a big part of the game, and as you travel beyond the material plane your pretty much going to find that the gods do indeed rule the afterlife.

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I guess the outer planes are the afterlife, but that component of them mostly gets overlooked in favor of more "gameable" features. It's a lot more fun to try and rob Tiamat's vault than to worry about where infernal petitioners end up.

But yes, in a universe where one could potentially interrogate the literal souls of the dead about where they are and how they think they ended up where they think they are, for those with access to those sorts of spells, there'd be very little question about at least some of these matters.

Of course, assuming they have not changed it from the Alpha, if you are a Wizard you can just cast Legend Lore at level 9 and it pretty much looks like it will answer the question of if any named NPC is truly a God or not.

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If we go with the classic Gygaxian cosmology, though, they could get the answers back that some entities are "Hero-Deities" or "Quasi-Deities" and they'd be even more confused.

Whizbang Dustyboots said:

Pascal's Wager works at least as well in a D&D universe as it does in any other.

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Well faith isn't exactly a rational choice (try to decide to believe in unicorns and see what happens) but yeah.

If you acknowledge the existence of ultra-powerful extraplanar beings who hear and grant prayers, it's kind of silly to say you don't believe in gods. It's like saying you agree there are waterfowl with bills that go quack, but you don't believe in ducks. What's the difference?

That said, in most settings atheism is not as unreasonable a proposition as I first thought. Clerical magic looks so much like wizard magic (right down to spell preparation) that you could make a decent case for it being wizard magic; just a different form of it, requiring different mental disciplines to master. Most people, even most adventurers up to quite high levels, never encounter actual gods. You do have to find an explanation for spells like commune and the 10th-level cleric's Divine Intervention ability, but other than that, it's not inherently absurd.

Even if you get resurrected, that doesn't disprove your thesis--there is no reason why an afterlife requires gods. If you actually meet gods in the afterlife, your position starts to get untenable, of course. You can still fall back on "It just says it's a god. That doesn't mean it's actually granting prayers," but the shape of the Duck is becoming hard to deny at that point.