D&D 5E Atheism/Agnosticism in 5e?

[Snapdragyn]

Aaaaand we've gone right into the 'atheism is PROPERLY defined thusly, & agnosticism in this manner' debate I specifically suggested we avoid in my OP.

I've mentioned in the thread that I was previously unaware of the word 'alatrism'. I do find it more accurately conveys what I was after. Perhaps we could accept that term & either drop the definitional debates or move them to another thread, please? [And to that end, I'm going to edit the OP to introduce that term.]

I will concede that, absent metagame definitions of 'god', a character in the Forgotten Realms would be extremely unlikely to have another word to use for the beings commonly worshipped. That said, I feel that focusing on this argument rather than addressing the central premise of a character who regarded the gods as unworthy of worship - what that might look like, how 'default' rules-legal it would be - is rather missing the intended point of the thread.

 

[Andor]

Which faction is that? My Planescape box is long, long gone.

The Athar aka the Defier or The Lost deny the Divinity of the Gods.

and for that matter the Godsman are all trying to ascend to godhood and therefore think that the difference between a God and man is one of degree and not kind.

And the Bleak Cabal would admit the gods exist, but deny that this means anything in particular.

Actually most of the planescape factions have some takes on religion that would probably seem pretty weird to anyone from the Realms.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Care to debate the existence of trees then?

Since you asked, the existence of treants, dryads and the like certainly means that the the traditional definition of flora is likewise imprecise in a D&D world.

Seriously, I'm long since tired of these arguments, made by people who wish to foist a modern perception of the world on a fantasy setting. I find their arguments flat out absurd and hold them in contempt.

It's terrible how people chase you down the street and shout these arguments at you, leaving you no choice but to hear these arguments against your will.

 

[Rune]

Even in the Realms, it is entirely possible for an individual to have not personally met a god and, having not personally met one, to be skeptical of their existance or nature.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

the central premise of a character who regarded the gods as unworthy of worship - what that might look like, how 'default' rules-legal it would be - is rather missing the intended point of the thread.

Hasn't that been asked and answered, though? It's default rules legal. Even clerics can worship "concepts" instead of gods, if the player prefers.

For non-clerics, the rest of the thread is pretty much the most-germaine part: There will be some who are very unhappy with them (including many clerics and paladins) and in at least one world, there are mechanical penalties that they may have heard rumors about for refusing to declare themselves a worshiper of the gods. (And I must say, that feels like some DM's very blunt tool being used to curb a player behavior he didn't like that somehow made it into the setting canon. Yuck.)

EDIT: Re-reading your quote, I realize I may have misunderstood you. My apologies if so.

 

[Mercurius]

The question of whether this is allowed in the RAW in 5E is besides the point of the spirit of 5E. It certainly is allowed in 5E, but it is up to the specific DM--and perhaps petitioning player--to come up with an explanation as to how this could be.

- I mean he believes THE gods - Helm, Moradin, Mystara, etc. - are not truly 'gods', but very (very, very, keep going) powerful beings.

So what exactly is the difference, in your mind? In most polytheistic religious systems, the gods are "very, very powerful beings" - even if they are also personifications of natural forces and cultural archetypes.

Take the Rig Veda, for instance, which is possibly the oldest known religious text. It says at one point that even the gods don't know the origin of the universe. In most forms of Hinduism, there are many gods but only one Brahman - the One being. Or in Kashmir Shaivism, all existence is perceived as the dance of Shiva. In most Hindu traditions, the core and underlying assumption is that everything is divine, everything (and everyone) is God.

You see this in other pantheons - many gods of different orders, and then one overgod, or "true" god. Take even Tolkien, who has Iluvatar or Eru the One, and then the greater deities, the Valar, and the lesser deities or demigods, the Maiar. Both are, in a way, races of powerful beings that were created by Iluvatar, and then helped Iluvatar create the rest of the universe.

Or look at how the Norse pantheon was portrayed in the Thor movies - they were very powerful, extraplanar beings.

You could also take more Jungian/Campbellian approach where the gods are archetypes of consciousness that are personified. So, for instance, Athena is not a being "out there" but a representation of certain aspects of consciousness that we all can tap into - insight, courage, wisdom, etc. So if a cleric worships Athena, they are worshipping those qualities as personified in a deity form, and their power (spells) come through connecting with that deep archetypal energy.

Anyhow, I think it is really up to the DM, perhaps with input from players, to come up with a campaign-specific explanation. Going back to 1E, there was the idea that PCs could ascend to divine status; this seems to be borne out in different campaign settings.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I'm working on a warlock character, & I think he might be of the 'these beings are indeed powerful, but not truly 'gods' in the way that word is commonly used' bent - if permitted.

With the looser rules, is this just more likely to fall into an individual DM question?

Even outside the "It's up to the DM" slant on the question... the fact that it's a warlock you are making means to me that any worship is unnecessary as far as the rules are concerned. The only class wherein divine belief and worship is tied into the fluff (thus requiring a basic form of "yeah the rules say you kinda have to") is the cleric. Well, plus one of the three paladin sub-classes does too.

All the other classes though make no real mention of needing to believe in any god in order to do what they do, and each established campaign setting has their own descriptive rules on whether its expected or not. I would imagine you should be fine provided the DM goes along with it.

 

[Umbran]

It's terrible how people chase you down the street and shout these arguments at you, leaving you no choice but to hear these arguments against your will.

You're smart enough to know that snark is basically failed communication, right? You know that you're not going to enlighten anyone who doesn't already agree with you with such, and that it is going to engage egos, rather than rational minds, right?

So (rhetorical question) why do it?

Next time, please resist the temptation.

 

[Mercurius]

One other idea to consider. It would be an interesting character concept to have a cleric or warlock who doesn't know where they get their powers, and/or actively disbelieves the supposed source of their powers.

Another variant of that is imagine if rather than mortals worshipping gods and getting powers from them, the reverse is true: gods (or very, very powerful beings) find themselves revering or loving mortals, and thereby granting them powers. So clerics and warlocks would be "chosen" by some supernatural/extraplanar being or other.

 

[jadrax]

The main issue to my mind that's being skipped over is the afterlife.

In most D&D settings, when you head of the pearly gates, there is a good chance you may spend a few days there before being summoned back t the local temple by your friendly priest. So there is not really the great sense of the unknown about what happens when you die.

So you die as a Atheist in the Forgotten Realms, you get taken to the wall of the faithless, a nice devil has a chat about this being the last time to sell your soul, assuming a Demon did not kidnap you on the way to the wall. And then just as your getting to hammer time, you end up back in Waterdeep....

That's the sort of thing that I think might make you reflect upon your beliefs.