D&D 5E Atheism/Agnosticism in 5e?

[Michael Morris]

First off, the "very, very, very powerful" beings argument is a fallicious argument - specifically moving the goalposts. If we go by the classical meaning of the term "god" - a being with ability and authority to change the world or a specific aspect of the world under their purview at will, then the beings labelled as gods in FR are deserving of their title.

Whether they are deserving of worship is another matter.

Now, a word on atheism and agnosticism. Atheism is the position that gods don't exist - the reverse is theism, god(s) do exist. Agnosticism is the position that you can't prove that god(s) exist, gnosticism is the claim that you can indeed prove their existence. They are not the same question, but in non-theological circles they get conflated (badly) into one by laymen. It's a minor pet peeve of mine.

Most atheists are gnostics - they believe the lack of evidence for gods is itself proof of their nonexistence. The same holds true for most theists - they believe they can prove god exists, though to date all proofs ever offered have been subjective at best. Most agnostics choose not to believe in god(s) for lack of proof otherwise, I personally am an agnostic that chooses to believe in God despite the lack of objective proof. My logic for this lies outside the scope of what the forum rules will allow.

You'll note above that proof is the defining point of contention in the real world.

In the fantasy realms of D&D agnosticism is as absurd as flat-earth claims are in the real world. Feel free to make such claims if you want, but in a world where deities have walked the streets, do talk to people, do send their agents into the world along with the occasional avatar, trying to claim there is no proof of the existence of gods is flat out absurdism. Atheism in the face of proof is likewise absurd.

As Henry pointed out, an argument can be made for movements of individuals that challenge whether gods are worthy of worship. My setting had a sect of monks that specifically claimed that all beings where divine and one should worship themselves in order to cultivate their inner divinity rather than give such worship to the gods. But even this sect wouldn't deny that the 20' tall shining jerk ass walking down the street wasn't divine.

If you create an atypical D&D setting where deities don't exist or stay silent then the gnostic and theistic arguments have room to be voiced. Just keep in mind such a structure is not D&D's default assumption.

 

[drjones]

As Henry pointed out... you might not choose to worship them... but that doesn't mean you still don't believe in them. If you know the very very very powerful beings then you know the gods exist. Because one is the term that defines the other.

Yes but there are a lot of theological questions that go beyond 'is this thing accurately labeled A God as I know it?' such as, 'if this being is a super-powered mortal why should I follow their teachings besides fear of violence?' 'If the gods are simply part of the universe, where did the universe they are part of come from?' 'If the gods are all powerful why do humanoids suffer?' 'If they are not all powerful then who is above them?' 'If I acknowledge they exist do I still need to believe what they say and what their priests purport?'

A person could no doubt write dissertations on the subject (and maybe someone has) but in the end it's a fantasy game we just make these stories up for fun. The answer to almost any question should be the old improv staple 'Yes and..' If a character wants to be a twist on a firebrand modern monotheistic atheist: 'Yes! And what does that mean about how they interact with the world? How can we get fun stories and interesting conflict out of this?'

 

[DEFCON 1]

I disagree that knowing powerful beings exist means that you cannot concieve of something else. Most Gods in panthestic religions behave like spoiled children. Maybe your character is adventuring on a quest to discover some being who he feels is actually worthy of his devotion and service.

I'm not saying they cannot conceive of other powerful beings in the Realms... but I am saying that the mere conception of them does not eliminate the word "god" as the descriptor of the beings that do already exist. In the FR... way back when in ancient history when language was being created for the first time, someone came up with the word "god" and used it to define these beings in the sky that interact with mortal men. Just like at some point, someone chose the word "milk" to define the white liquid that comes out of a cow's udder. We all know that white liquid exists, and thus... we all believe in "milk". Even if you could conceive of another better-tasting liquid... that doesn't change the word used to describe the white liquid.

And in the Realms... it's exactly as Michael Morris said. Everyone knows these beings exist, and to deny it would be like someone in our world insisting the planet isn't round or that you can't get a white liquid out of a cow's udder. You can say it all you want... but everyone knows you're full of it and deliberately being obtuse.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I think that they might change their tune once they reach a god-like status and, perhaps, need worshippers to continue to grow in power.

The illusionists in particular would likely find that a hilarious reversal.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There's irrefutable evidence that god exists in the game world because you can perform the same experiment (praying to your god and him allowing you to cast spells) over and over and over.

That doesn't prove the entity is a god, just that it's capable of granting a supernatural boon and it's aware of non-traditional means of communication.

You can put a bowl of milk out on your back doorstep and find your whole house has been cleaned before you wake, but very few people are going to start worshiping brownies as a result.

I don't think it's at all irrational that residents of a world as sophisticated about the supernatural as most PCs tend to be after getting a few levels under their belt would be skeptical about the "so-called gods." (And I like "alatrism" as well.)

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

There is a specific faction in the planecscape setting that believes that the "gods" are just very powerful beings and should not be worshiped. So this idea/character possibility has been part of the game since 2nd edition.

Which faction is that? My Planescape box is long, long gone.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

One thing to note with Forgotten Realms, take some consideration as to how your character would react to learning about the Wall of the Faithless.

As a punishment created by supernatural bullies to use against those who don't kiss their ... rings?

 

[Andor]

And in the Realms... it's exactly as Michael Morris said. Everyone knows these beings exist, and to deny it would be like someone in our world insisting the planet isn't round or that you can't get a white liquid out of a cow's udder. You can say it all you want... but everyone knows you're full of it and deliberately being obtuse.

Oh sure, in the Realms. The Realms kind of remind me of the scene in one of the Discworld books where the philosophers were proclaiming how there were no gods, but first making sure that they were picking a distant god because they were getting sick of the lightning bolts. In Eberron on the other hand proof of divine forces is harder to come by. In Athas it's impossible to come by. D&D does not have a single default assumption about the prevelance of divine intervention.

Nor does fantasy fiction. in the Chalion books by Lois BuJold the Gods grant everyone the funary miracle, but unless you're a Saint or Warlock or Shaman you're not going to have much to do with the gods in your daily life. In fact in that series there is a major religious schism because one faction does not accept the Divinity of one of the gods and reject his worship.

In the LotR series God (Eru, the One) is outside the universe entirely and does not interfere, the Maiar who fulfill the offices that most D&D games whould fill with Gods are not Gods and would tell you so. But they are immortal, powerful and answer prayers so....

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

First off, the "very, very, very powerful" beings argument is a fallicious argument - specifically moving the goalposts. If we go by the classical meaning of the term "god" - a being with ability and authority to change the world or a specific aspect of the world under their purview at will, then the beings labelled as gods in FR are deserving of their title.

By that definition, there's a few dozen wizards (or more, given that it's the FR) that qualify as gods. It's not a fallacious argument at all in a cosmos with as many powerful beings as Faerun has: The classical definition is clearly insufficient there.

 

[Michael Morris]

By that definition, there's a few dozen wizards (or more, given that it's the FR) that qualify as gods. It's not a fallacious argument at all in a cosmos with as many powerful beings as Faerun has: The classical definition is clearly insufficient there.

Care to debate the existence of trees then?

Seriously, I'm long since tired of these arguments, made by people who wish to foist a modern perception of the world on a fantasy setting. I find their arguments flat out absurd and hold them in contempt.