D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part IX: Paladin)

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Indeed, I'm not even sure it is possible without actually rewriting the rules (e.g. as Level Up has done), that is, I'm almost convinced (call it 60% convinced) that even a new class wouldn't cut it.
So, I disagree, and I’ll tell you why! 😂

What you’d need in 5e to make it work are the following:

  • Attack effects like booming blade, where if you hit they suffer damage if they move willingly. A feature that makes every attack do that is totally within 5e’s design parameters. One that deals the secondary damage if the target makes an attack that doesn’t include you would work just fine.
  • Auras that do things like create difficult terrain and/or cause damage or restricting effects for enemies around you.
  • Limited but not hyper limited or later level abilities to transform into a Guardian Form that buffs you defenses and your punishment/sticky features, and change your basic attacks. Sounds like a great central feature for a class! Could even be what defines subclasses, though that would then potentially restrict variety.
  • Bonus: something like your aura grants allies THP and enemies take damage when they hit a creature with that THP. Maybe model it on Armor of Agythis so you can scale it.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
So, I disagree, and I’ll tell you why! 😂

What you’d need in 5e to make it work are the following:

  • Attack effects like booming blade, where if you hit they suffer damage if they move willingly. A feature that makes every attack do that is totally within 5e’s design parameters. One that deals the secondary damage if the target makes an attack that doesn’t include you would work just fine.
  • Auras that do things like create difficult terrain and/or cause damage or restricting effects for enemies around you.
  • Limited but not hyper limited or later level abilities to transform into a Guardian Form that buffs you defenses and your punishment/sticky features, and change your basic attacks. Sounds like a great central feature for a class! Could even be what defines subclasses, though that would then potentially restrict variety.
  • Bonus: something like your aura grants allies THP and enemies take damage when they hit a creature with that THP. Maybe model it on Armor of Agythis so you can scale it.
I hadn't considered taking inspiration from booming blade, that is a potential direction to take things, sure. The big issue, to me, is that third point. 5e enforces pretty strict limits on what characters are allowed to do, and the community at large is hypervigiliant about certain things being "overpowered." (Consider, for example, how even people on this forum who scoff at the concept of "balance" react with dismay or scorn at the suggestion that you could have a Warlord regularly granting attacks to allies due to how allegedly unbalanced it would be if paired with Rogue Sneak Attack.)

Perhaps I am cynical and jaded, but at least the 5e books we have (more on that momentarily) are, as I said, a weird mix of too restrictive and too open-ended to make a lot of this work. The restrictions enforce some actually pretty draconian limits on what classes are even allowed to attempt, especially if they don't use spells. (Spells, as usual, are a huge problem point for D&D design...) And then on the open-ended side, there's so much that the books are silent on, or worse, don't even seem to consider in the first place. That is, the difference between "an empty space where maybe rules could have been written, but there aren't any," and "rules for that can't be written for this system, at least not without pulling out its guts and completely rewiring them," a la Level Up.

It doesn't help that there's an intensely conservative fanbase that fights back against even the smallest deviations. I floated the trial balloon of a PrC once, years ago. The response, in multiple places not just here, was somewhere between "completely ignored" and "drowned out by negative responses." The very idea of a PrC gets peoples' backs up, not because the concept of a restricted-length alternate class option is actually bad, but because several people think "ah, that crappy thing from 3e? Absolutely not ever, doesn't matter how much you change it." (If you're curious, I can send you a link. I never got the chance to playtest it--literally never found a group willing after more than six months, so I eventually gave up--so I can't actually promise it's balanced. But I gave it my best shot.)

Oh also @EzekielRaiden I think the anniversary core books will make the game more compatible with having defender type characters, judging by the playtest thus far.

Just having a slowed condition helps a little.
It certainly seems like the "One D&D" playtest lacks the anti-4e animus present in the D&D Next playtest. We'll see what that ends up actually producing in the end. I've been burned enough times to not bother having any expectations, other than "more of the same." (E.g. the playtest dragonborn was deeply disappointing, even if technically the new version of dragon breath did a bit more damage than the PHB version.)
 

FireLance

Legend
But "spell slot" isn't "flavor text," is it? It means something. Antimagic fields. Upcast--er, uprallying. "Countercommanding." You can't just change the names--they come with mechanical significance that matters, that runs deep into the heart of the system.

...

There's an underlying further issue though. Even if you could quickly and conveniently wipe away all the mechanical issues with a Warlord who simply takes spells and calls them something that isn't "spells," I would know what they are. I would know what the underlying system is, and it would chafe. Things that are clearly, explicitly not magic in the least and yet copy over the traditional structure of D&D magic? Yeah, that's a problem.

It wasn't a problem in 4e because powers aren't spells--they're more fundamental than that. Powers can be anything. Even Melee Basic Attack is a power--literally "I just threw a punch with my hand" can be expressed as a power, because that's just the framework that expresses defined actions. (Skills, meanwhile, cover undefined actions, which is why 4e pushes such an expansive, open-ended concept of skills, and why Skill Challenges are actually really important.)
Snipped some stuff.

4E sidestepped the problem of magic vs. martial by basically removing antimagic, VSM components, counterspelling, dispel magic, etc. In effect, and contrary to what some detractors keep saying, it made everyone a non-spellcaster.

I also think it would be somewhat hypocrtical to argue that daily martial powers in 4E are not spells and then argue that daily martial slots in 5E are spells because they follow the spell slot progression.

I am coming round to thinking that the bard actually makes a good chassis for a warlord character. It just needs the following:

1. A College that grants access to Battlemaster maneuvers, allows Bardic Inspiration dice to be used as Superiority dice, and allow Spell Secrets to gain more maneuvers.

2. Sword Magic "spells" that are powered by spell slots but are otherwise Extraordinary or Supernatural in the 3E sense. As part of the "spell", you make a weapon attack and if it hits, you deal extra damage (may depend on level) and get some other benefit or effect.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
I'm replying here so as not to derail the other thread.
It's more than that, but less than the others. There are gods and goddesses of mercy, compassion, charity, etc. They could and would have paladins that swears an oath to redeem others. To me it's just a much more limited oath than the others that remain.
Certainly, I suppose I just don't see the subclass as doing anything more, mechanically, than fulfill part of the archetype of the Paladin that should have had some sort of mechanical weight in the base class in the first place, and then half the subclass is just there to turn that into a whole subclass.

And yeah, it's a more narrow oath.

And I'd rather see this concept fleshed out in a priest class, but since dnd doesn't have such a thing, it just has whatever the hell the cleric is trying to be, I'm not mad at it, here. I just don't like it as much as even the Devotion Paladin.

Cookie flavored cookie is just a sugar cookie, which is delicious.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Certainly, I suppose I just don't see the subclass as doing anything more, mechanically, than fulfill part of the archetype of the Paladin that should have had some sort of mechanical weight in the base class in the first place, and then half the subclass is just there to turn that into a whole subclass.
This I think depends on your view of what a paladin's role is.

Since 2e I haven't liked how narrow the paladin's role was, being just a paragon of virtue and divine justice. When 3e came out I changed paladins from being the traditional narrow role into being a holy paragon of the god he's a paladin of, so if you were a paladin of Mystra, detect evil would be replaced by detect magic and other changes to fit here theme would be made, as would the restrictions that the paladin could not break without risking a fall from grace. Alignment would have to match the paladin's god. I let the players know that I would work with them to create a unique paladin for whatever god they wanted to be a paladin of.

4e and 5e have changed paladin to more closely fit my 3e vision, so I'm more apt to view the oaths in that light.

If you hold to a more traditional view of paladins, then it makes sense that you would see it as something that is already incorporated into the base class itself. The oaths would the be more of a flavor of the traditional paragon of justice and virtue, rather than being non-traditional paragons.
And I'd rather see this concept fleshed out in a priest class, but since dnd doesn't have such a thing, it just has whatever the hell the cleric is trying to be, I'm not mad at it, here. I just don't like it as much as even the Devotion Paladin.
I could see a Mercy Domain for clerics.
Cookie flavored cookie is just a sugar cookie, which is delicious.
Hah! I can't stand them, which sucked for me about a month ago when my 8 year old son who thinks those are god's gift to mankind gave me one in thanks for doing something nice for him. It took me all day to eat 90% of the cookie(I didn't want to disappoint him or rebuff his generosity) and the remaining 10% disappeared after his bedtime. Chocolate chip cookies are where it's at!
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Cookie flavored cookie is just a sugar cookie, which is delicious.
Clearly you and I have very different sugar cookies. A good sugar cookie absolutely has its own flavor and distinction.

Calling a cookie "cookie-flavored," at least from my perspective, is like making sugar cookie dough and then putting chunks of chocolate chip cookie into it. Not chocolate chunks, cookie chunks. As in...you already had to make cookies...in order to make other cookies. It's just redundant.

Devotion to a difficult moral standard is literally the core of the Paladin concept. It is the through line that the class has had for literally its entire existence, one of the exceedingly rare things in D&D that has remained truly constant across every edition (that has a Paladin in it, anyway.) What specific standard one adheres to has of course varies quite a lot, but the idea of deep and pervasive devotion is more central to the Paladin than to any other class, even thr Cleric. The Cleric is, in some sense, cerebral. A priest, educated in the faith, full of wise words and counsel, there to guide and nurture the flock. The Paladin is not such a counselor. She is a warrior and an exemplar. The dedication, the self-sacrifice, the unremitting purity of her commitment is the source of her strength. The Cleric can and perhaps even should ask questions of his deity, teasing out the subtleties of doctrine and ritual that govern layperson and clergy. The Paladin is neither lay nor clergy, but a true and explicit soldier of the faith. Soldiers obey the chain of command. They are, by definition, supposed to be devoted to their nation.

An oath of devotion is...just...that's what every oath requires! Devotion to a cause!
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I also think it would be somewhat hypocrtical to argue that daily martial powers in 4E are not spells and then argue that daily martial slots in 5E are spells because they follow the spell slot progression.
I certainly don't see any hypocrisy in it.

I genuinely 100% do not want 9 (and a half) "tiers" of "commands" which come in discrete chunky "positions," where you learn a set number of "commands" per "tier" based on your "command level," with increased power if you "uprally" them into higher-"tier" "positions."

Powers aren't spells because spells are really specific things. It's really obvious when you're using the spell slot mechanic vs when you aren't. Powers? Every pre-defined action is a power! Taking an instant to catch your breath is a power (Second Wind.) Throwing a stone is a power (Ranged Basic Attack.) Patching up an unconscious ally is a power (Stabilize Ally.) Drinking a potion is a power (formally, each individual potion is a distinct power, because there are different effects for different potions.) Channel Divinity is a power. Lay on Hands is a power. Wild Shape is a power.

Like...you already recognize that there is a difference, a rather important one, between features like Channel Divinity or Wild Shape or Rage and spells, right? 5e treats them very differently. 4e says, "Do we really need to? They're all pre-defined actions. Wouldn't it be useful if they spoke a common language, rather than speaking four mutually unintelligible languages?"

It is neither the case that 4e made all characters spellcasters nor that it made all characters non-spellcasters. Instead, it said, "Spells are one kind of action players can take. We want a framework that can let both spells AND non-spells receive the same kinds of buffs and debuffs, so that everyone is on the same page and agrees on the value of various bonuses or penalties."

"Powers" are at a higher level of abstraction than "magic" vs "nonmagic," let alone "spells" vs "non-spells." Spells are not all possible pre-defined actions in 5e. All pre-defined actions are powers in 4e.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Clearly you and I have very different sugar cookies. A good sugar cookie absolutely has its own flavor and distinction.

Calling a cookie "cookie-flavored," at least from my perspective, is like making sugar cookie dough and then putting chunks of chocolate chip cookie into it. Not chocolate chunks, cookie chunks. As in...you already had to make cookies...in order to make other cookies. It's just redundant.

Devotion to a difficult moral standard is literally the core of the Paladin concept. It is the through line that the class has had for literally its entire existence, one of the exceedingly rare things in D&D that has remained truly constant across every edition (that has a Paladin in it, anyway.) What specific standard one adheres to has of course varies quite a lot, but the idea of deep and pervasive devotion is more central to the Paladin than to any other class, even thr Cleric. The Cleric is, in some sense, cerebral. A priest, educated in the faith, full of wise words and counsel, there to guide and nurture the flock. The Paladin is not such a counselor. She is a warrior and an exemplar. The dedication, the self-sacrifice, the unremitting purity of her commitment is the source of her strength. The Cleric can and perhaps even should ask questions of his deity, teasing out the subtleties of doctrine and ritual that govern layperson and clergy. The Paladin is neither lay nor clergy, but a true and explicit soldier of the faith. Soldiers obey the chain of command. They are, by definition, supposed to be devoted to their nation.

An oath of devotion is...just...that's what every oath requires! Devotion to a cause!
This reads like you’re just looking at the name of the oath, rather than what it does, but!

The game is better for having subclasses that primarily double down on the base class. Redemption bothers me because it is focusing on a thing that should be in the base class but isn’t. Devotion is excellent because it isn’t trying to create an offshoot of the archetype, it’s representing the classic iteration of the archetype.
 

Hmm... re: Wardens and Oath of Ancients I think that I'd do two major things:
  • Encourage lighter armours through stat swaps and/or bonuses; the "Plate armour is best" doesn't feel at all right to me.
  • More messing with the spell list. And possibly custom spells to resemble Warden dailies
 

Remove ads

Top