D&D 5E Stealth & that big Rock!

Saelorn said:

You can attack a creature which is unaware of you, during your surprise round, gaining both Advantage and Sneak Attack. You just can't benefit from trying to hide against a creature that knows you are there while it can see you.

Unless your DM decides otherwise, of course. There's nothing wrong with house rules, and I guess it's vague enough that your DM can try to interpret it as not actually requiring a house rules, if they really want to argue that hiding behind a rock for a couple of seconds is enough to catch someone completely off guard. Repeatedly.

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Trying to repeatedly hide behind the same rock is why the Stealth rules allow for DM discretion. The DM can easily say "No, that doesn't work."

Saelorn said:

You can attack a creature which is unaware of you, during your surprise round, gaining both Advantage and Sneak Attack. You just can't benefit from trying to hide against a creature that knows you are there while it can see you.

Unless your DM decides otherwise, of course. There's nothing wrong with house rules, and I guess it's vague enough that your DM can try to interpret it as not actually requiring a house rules, if they really want to argue that hiding behind a rock for a couple of seconds is enough to catch someone completely off guard. Repeatedly.

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The enemy doesn't know when or if you will pop back out from the rock and make your attack, which is why you catch them with advantage.

I notice you still will not directly address my previous analysis, which suggests to me that you realize there are flaws with your interpretation. Surely in all the posts since 5e has been out, you have noticed that you are on the far extreme in your interpretation of how Stealth/hidden works compared with the masses?

Kalshane said:

I think the Stealth rules were intentionally left vague so the DM could adjudicate based on a given situation.

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I think they were deliberately left vague because stealth and visibility rules are really hard to write.

Saelorn said:

You can attack a creature which is unaware of you, during your surprise round, gaining both Advantage and Sneak Attack. You just can't benefit from trying to hide against a creature that knows you are there while it can see you.

Unless your DM decides otherwise, of course. There's nothing wrong with house rules, and I guess it's vague enough that your DM can try to interpret it as not actually requiring a house rules, if they really want to argue that hiding behind a rock for a couple of seconds is enough to catch someone completely off guard. Repeatedly.

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There is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e.

It's actually "While it can see you clearly" post errata.

No one is saying DM's can't make rulings at the table. But what you're claiming here isn't about rulings. You're speaking in absolutes!




Btw everyone should go see the new Star Wars.

slaughterj said:

The enemy doesn't know when or if you will pop back out from the rock and make your attack, which is why you catch them with advantage.

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The enemy knows that you were there, and is constantly alert for the possibility that you might appear again from any angle. This part is explicitly stated in the book as the general assumption for how awareness works during combat.

slaughterj said:

I notice you still will not directly address my previous analysis, which suggests to me that you realize there are flaws with your interpretation.

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Your analysis was poorly formatted, due to the constraints of the medium at hand. The short answer is that I agree with (4), and (6) follows from (4), but (7) is based purely on speculation. There is no reason to assume that it is intended for a rogue to hide in order to make sneak attacks every round, especially given that is is much easier to qualify for a sneak attack by virtue of having a nearby ally. If you consider that sneak attack from hiding is only intended to matter against a target that is unaware of you (such as during an ambush - before your ally is in place), then the rules are entirely consistent on this point.

slaughterj said:

Surely in all the posts since 5e has been out, you have noticed that you are on the far extreme in your interpretation of how Stealth/hidden works compared with the masses?

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No, this issue was settled long ago. My positions concurs with the consensus gathered at that time, and nothing has changed since then. If nobody else is posting here, it's merely because this issue was settled so long ago that it warrants no further discussion.

Noctem said:

There is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e.

It's actually "While it can see you clearly" post errata.

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There's a thing in 5E which corresponds to the thing that was previously known as the surprise round. It amounts to the same thing, for many (but not all) purposes. In this case, they both represent the start of the fight, when you can sneak attack someone because they aren't aware of you yet.

"While it can see you clearly" is just another way of saying "while you are not heavily obscured or behind total cover", while leaving enough room for explicit exceptions (like the halfling/elf thing) and random shenanigans that they could never predict.

The key thing, I think, is that in 5e being hidden doesn't mean that you're completely invisible. It means that an enemy has lost track of you.

In 5e, every creature in combat is reacting to the environment to keep itself safe. It is able to react to every enemy because it is paying attention to the world and dodging, covering, etc. Some creatures are more perceptive than others, but all creatures in combat are constantly on the look-out for danger.

A successful stealth roll simply means that the enemy has lost track of your exact location. They may know roughly where you are (you ducked around a corner, or you are a halfling and dodged behind some larger allies or whatever), but they don't know precisely where an attack from you is going to originate, so they are unable to react defensively. This is what advantage from hiding is actually modelling, and this is why the 5e rules don't rule out repeated use of stealth in combat, even if you are ducking behind the same pillar again and again.

Of course, the rules also don't say that repeated stealth like this is categorically allowed, either. The 5e standard is for the GM to apply their own ideas and common sense to make a game their players will enjoy. Personally, I think a rogue repeatedly hiding behind the same pillar shouldn't work more than once or twice. My personal ruling is that it depends on how large an area the hidden creature could emerge from. If there's only a 5' square, then I will give targets advantage (+5) on their passive perception after the first time. If the hidden creature could emerge from at least 10', I use the normal passive perception. If the hidden creature could emerge from practically anywhere - at least 20' of space, say - I usually give the target disadvantage on their passive perception.

Thankyou for everyone's replies. They have been very helpful. I have come to the following conclusions, which I will be implementing in my campaign unless someone can convince I am in error?
Core Concepts
• You cannot Hide from a creature that can see you clearly (requires at least 3/4 cover).
• Stealth is an Action. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.
• Passive Perception is the DC your Stealth roll must succeed against.
• Search is an Action that allows a creature to make an active Perception skill check.
• Only the First attack roll on a creatures turn has Advantage if they are able to successfully hide.
• If the location a creature is attempting to hide in is obvious, the creature has Advantage on their passive Perception check (DC +5). Example: creature hides behind a tree and doesn’t reappear, ducked around a corner, vanished from sight but didn’t hear you move away, etc. This is also subject to DM fiat. Example: If a creature repeatedly ducks around the same corner and pops out to sneak attack, it can be assumed the target is expecting the tactic and the creature automatically sees the attacker dart out as they are expecting your re-emergence.
• Disadvantage on Perception checks if target is 50 feet or further away.
• Dim Light (shadows): Imposes disadvantage on Perception checks.
• Darkvision: Can see in darkness as if the darkness were dim light. You see in shades of grey.

Darkvision also makes you see normal when there is dim light.

Amatiel said:

Thankyou for everyone's replies. They have been very helpful. I have come to the following conclusions, which I will be implementing in my campaign unless someone can convince I am in error?
Core Concepts
• You cannot Hide from a creature that can see you clearly (requires at least 3/4 cover). That's ok though I would personally also say that forms of concealment should qualify.
• Stealth is an Action. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Correct, a rogue can use cunning action to do it as a bonus action.
• Passive Perception is the DC your Stealth roll must succeed against. correct
• Search is an Action that allows a creature to make an active Perception skill check. correct.
• Only the First attack roll on a creatures turn has Advantage if they are able to successfully hide. this is incorrect. The first attack you make when you're hidden has advantage. If you can somehow hide, attack and then hide + attack again on the same turn then both of those attacks would have advantage because you managed to hide before both.
• If the location a creature is attempting to hide in is obvious, the creature has Advantage on their passive Perception check (DC +5). Example: creature hides behind a tree and doesn’t reappear, ducked around a corner, vanished from sight but didn’t hear you move away, etc. This is also subject to DM fiat. Example: If a creature repeatedly ducks around the same corner and pops out to sneak attack, it can be assumed the target is expecting the tactic and the creature automatically sees the attacker dart out as they are expecting your re-emergence. This isn't something that I do as a DM but it does fall within your prerogative if you really feel the need to impose this kind of penalty to the rogue.
• Disadvantage on Perception checks if target is 50 feet or further away. There's also disadvantage when trying to perceive things you can't see properly. Such as trying to make out someone in darkness. See the point below
• Dim Light (shadows): Imposes disadvantage on Perception checks. correct, dim light and darker.
• Darkvision: Can see in darkness as if the darkness were dim light. You see in shades of grey. As someone else noted, darkvision also let's you treat dim light as normal light which can counter the benefit of the Skulker feat for example.

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