What is the essence of D&D

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I only recall pretty paltry damage from a fighter my 9th level fighter I think had 3 attacks in 2 rounds rounds 1d8+4 per? He was I think a 17 strength with a +3 weapon. Shrug i am struggling to remember the numbers after over 30 years so meh.
Those numbers would be correct if the Fighter wasn't weapon-spec'ed. Weapon spec. from UA added considerably to these numbers, I don't remember the specifics offhand because we've used our own house variant for so long.

In our games that same Fighter, if weapon-spec'ed and (of course) if using that weapon, would be 2 attacks/round with spec. giving an extra +1 to hit and +2 to damage. (so net +5 to hit, +6 damage)

The extra +'s aren't much but the extra half-attack per round is big; and at 10th that Fighter would go to 5/2. Zaardnar's example of a 14th-level being 7/2 follows this same progression.
 

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Tony Vargas

Legend
I don't think there are many people, if any people, who would say, "You know what I hated about 4e? The idea of letting martial characters be as good as non-martial characters."
"Magic just doesn't feel magical" and "fighters cast spells" and "dissociative mechanics" were /common/ complaints. Resolving them invariable meant restoring the status quo 'primacy' of magic. 5e has done that, it's recognized as really D&D.

I don't see a problem, as far as fitting the available information goes.

- it's a dangerous thing to tell people that the reason that they like (or dislike) something is incorrect, and that you know better than they do why they really like or dislike something.
And I'm not doing that. I'm pointing out factual correlations between a particular editions qualities as a system, and it's general perception as not D&D (by both people who hate it, and some who quite liked it).

You don't have to dislike something to sort it into a different box from some other things you do like. You just have to see the differences.

If I say I don't like butter pecan ice cream because I don't like pecans, and you keep saying, "No, it's just because you don't like primacy of cream in it," it's probably not going to be a fun conversation.
Yeah, what if they also insist they love pecan pie? And turtles (that's a caramel & pecan candy). And, well, pecans.

Because, well, that's what trying to untangle complaints about dissociative mechanics was like.

2. I am unclear on your purpose; given that this thread is (was) about celebrating the commonality in D&D
That said commonality doesn't hold, because the edition war /did/ happen. And, 5e's inclusive, 'big tent' goal has not been met.

I'm afraid an insight to be gleaned from this thread is that it /can't/ be, because the D&D label has been put on something that wasn't D&D, and that can't ever be allowed back in the tent.
 




Tony Vargas

Legend
There's no tent big enough to cover all the extremists, and never will be; but if 5e play numbers and overall popularity are any guide I'd say they've otherwise met that goal and more.
The extremists are in the tent with you. And, popularity as justification is, well, appeal to popularity.

Inclusion is not about accommodating a majority, nor accommodating one minority that insists on excluding another - it's about /not/ excluding anyone.

And, yes, it's not always compatible with commercial success.

More importantly, it did include some aspects of 4e in it; 4e informed 5e, just like all prior editions did.
Sure, the ones that could be made compatible with the Essence of D&D. ;)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Er...not quite sure what you're getting at here.
It means its behavior doesn't have to follow physics of some sort aside from mystical kind like the earth cancels the fire... if it simply stops at the wall it stops at the wall. It doesn't have to push it out the other way. Fire met something it couldn't burn and stopped is fine magically.
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
To say that in a particular edition magic "doesn't feel magical" is, one the one hand, very accurate for the individual making the observation, but, on the other, not terribly useful as a comparative or analytical tool because it's oh so very subjective. I suspect that if we drilled down we would find a range of commonalities between what various people mean when they say that, but even then I think there would be some pretty significant differences between even those more granular objections.

I'd also agree that no tent is big enough to include all the liminal spaces of what D&D 'is' or 'means' to the full range of players. Personally, I think 5E does a pretty good job covering a lot of opinions and ideas pulled from previous editions. I also think that 5E is a easy enough engine to work with that a lot of the liminal wants can be layered on without too much rules hacking. Mostly that feels like a win to me, even though I have issues with some of the RAW mechanics present in the system.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Given the great lengths that 5e, especially, has gone to be more inclusive and tolerant in terms of promoting gaming for once-marginalized communities, I think that your last sentence is more than a little over-the-top and obnoxious.
I can assure that however once-marginalized certain communities may seem to you, they're still marginalized. That doesn't end the moment it's acknowledged.

And you brought up "danger," but I can see how it could be misinterpreted.

"not being welcoming to self-marginalized gamers who prefer the prior edition."
"We're being inclusive, and anyone we didn't include just marginalized themselves?" That sure makes inclusiveness easy.
 

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