D&D 5E Paladin just committed murder - what should happen next?

Li Shenron · Sep 19, 2019

I am sorry to hear so many comments in favor of this "paladin"...

The PC in question did not commit murder, but he definitely behave like a coward. Now, if I choose to play a Paladin, it's pretty much because I want my character to embody courage, sacrifice and a "no-compromise" ethos, even if it depends on the Oath. A Paladin does not do what is "reasonable" or convenient. In fact, a Paladin is not reasonable in many cases. And he might even commit murder by mis-judgement or in a sprout of rage, or actually because its Oath allows him to murder those who deserve to be murdered - see the Batman-inspired Oath of Vengeance, and the Darth Vader-inspired Oath of Conquest. I am however assuming this PC is not one of those, but even them wouldn't easily give up someone else to death if he was about to save them first.

I would not punish this character in the game, but I would pretty much ask the player why the hell did he want to play a Paladin if he didn't really want it to behave like one. Pretty much the whole life of a Paladin should be expected to be about painful choices anyway, like the movie-proverbial scene with the superhero having to choose between saving the life of his/her love interest or the bus full of school kids, then whatever the choice torturing himself with the regret he couldn't save both. But you said the player said "ok" and went on as if nothing. So no, I would not punish him, but I will let him know that he is being a very poor player.

Coroc · Sep 19, 2019

firstkyne said:
During our session tonight, the party's paladin got in trouble. He was carrying an injured NPC to safety. Unfortunately, an adult dragon cornered him.
"Give me that man, and you can live. I hunger" it said. I had hoped he would stare it down with a bit of god-fuelled determination.
"OK" Said the paladin, and the dragon flew off with the screaming man.
The player admitted, 'I wanted to live'. He figured he should live to fight another day (and continue on the world-saving adventure the party are part way through).
I don't want to punish the player so much that he drops out of the game, but I think there have to be repercussions (ours is not a slapstick murderhobo game).
He is 7th level with a level of warlock (! I know...)
How would you handle this. If he becomes an oathbreaker, does that replace his previous paladin levels, so he becomes a 7th level oathbreaker?
Is that too punishing?
If he becomes an oathbreaker, I plan to talk to him about taking a vow to find a way back into his gods good graces, such as by returning to slay the dragon AND find resurrection for the dead man.

That is not only murder, that is far worse. On my table this paladin would be instantly fallen and converted to a fighter of neutral evil alignment. The deed you depict is cowardly, so no oathbreaker or shenanigan, it is just disgusting even for normal classes. Since he is a warlock mc you can alter him to a single-classed warlock depending on who his patron is, if it is some devil or demon it will depict him highly satisfying their patron, but the whole thing almost not redeemable to be paladin again.

Hussar · Sep 19, 2019

It's kinda funny how much earlier edition baggage holds over into the paladins of 5e.

Being a coward is not breaking your oath necessarily. Oath of Vengeance paladins wouldn't really have much of an issue here. Probably take it as a reason to go hunt down that dragon and slay it properly - thus vengeance - but pointlessly commit suicide by dragon? Not so much. My Oath of Conquest paladin might even strike a deal with the dragon.

Paladins are no longer the Captain America's of D&D

Son of the Serpent · Sep 19, 2019

Eh. Slap on the wrist.

Seramus · Sep 19, 2019

Assuming Devotion, have him perform a divine mandated atonement. Nothing too horrible, but a tithe to the grieving widow at a minimum.

Kaodi · Sep 19, 2019

I agree more or less with Celebrim for what this would mean for a traditional paladin. Think of how you would describe people this had happened to in some other context, even real life - it is perhaps permissible to surrender a charge this way due to duress, but it is ignoble and shameful. And "ignoble and shameful" are not what we imagine when we think of a paladin.

That said I am not sure you should actually do in game. If your players has a rollplaying instead of a roleplaying mindset then I suppose you may have to let it slide. But anyone who was actually committed to "roleplaying" should be able to accept that their character's actions have consequences.

Hussar · Sep 19, 2019

A potential solution is to talk to the player and ask if the player feels that the character has done something that needs to be atoned for. If the player does, then ask the player what he or she feels would be a proper atonement and then do that.

That way everyone's happy. Presuming of course, that the player feels that he should atone.

FrogReaver · Sep 19, 2019

Assuming the player had an oath that giving the NPC to the dragon might break:

Can I just say, I don't think having a choice of character death or breaking your Oath (with major consequences) is a fun choice.

My bigger concern is why the DM put the player in this situation to begin with.

5ekyu · Sep 19, 2019

Hussar said:
It's kinda funny how much earlier edition baggage holds over into the paladins of 5e.

Being a coward is not breaking your oath necessarily. Oath of Vengeance paladins wouldn't really have much of an issue here. Probably take it as a reason to go hunt down that dragon and slay it properly - thus vengeance - but pointlessly commit suicide by dragon? Not so much. My Oath of Conquest paladin might even strike a deal with the dragon.

Paladins are no longer the Captain America's of D&D

Yep.

Even for the issue of hood, which is better for good?

Refuse and we both die out here alone?
Give up the victim, get away, raise forces, slay dragon, rezz the fallen guy?

Folks are acting like the options were " one of you dies, which one?"

But I did not see any promise of living for the other guy if the pally gave himself up. Seemed to me to be a both die vs victim dies "choice".

Imaculata · Sep 19, 2019

FrogReaver said:
LOL. All the towns people could simply refuse to ever be saved by him. They'd argue that their fate in whatever predicament they were in was better than in the dragons belly he'd feed them to.

Yes, having a reputation as the 'hero' who feeds the helpless to a dragon, is enough of a punishment here. This is what I would do.