D&D 4E Are powers samey?

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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
It's totally cool with me that you don't agree. :) But that doesn't quite answer my question. To rephrase:

Can you see why the comparatively restricted ability of 4e's powers and rituals to bypass encounters could contribute to someone else's feeling that 4e's powers and rituals are comparatively "samey"?
Allowing only spell casters to trivialize things is a difference do you honestly consider that a benefit or feature? Because flank that. My rogue might be able to stealth and distract and stealth trivializing an encounter and spend strategic resources to do it too in 4e any way... if the encounter is challenging for a full party it should be designed so that does not actually happen any way
You might claim non casters could do that in 5even but less likely in a strategic way... 4e gives everyone access to the strategic (in better defined ways)
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
@Garthanos and @doctorbadwolf, with regards to skill challenges and character abilities:

As I described here, my overall intent in this thread is to explain why I personally find 4e's powers to be "samey". As part of doing so, I have made numerous references to "character abilities". I'm using that term here to refer to abilities granted to the character via their class(es), race, feats, backgrounds, rituals, and other features of character building.

I recongize that other definitions of "character abilities" exist, including a much broader one that includes anything the DM permits the characters to do at their table. Under that definition, I acknowledge that resolution methods are important to determining the scope of what the characters can practically accomplish in the fiction at a particular table.

Since I am not using that broader definition as I attempt to communicate why 4e's powers feel samey to me, I don't think resolution methods are relevant to my explanation.
You left off skills and healing surges as strategic character abilities in 4e land that is ignorant or disingenuous as @doctorbadwolf said...skills provide powers and surges empower via martial practices in skill challenges and such in freestyle.
I do not think we can leave out the strategic arena though which I think was core to your hypothesis and useful as I have said but I think its evidence that focusing just on powers being samey is incorrect
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
And if I'm allowed to rant a bit:

People sometimes bring up 4e leader minor action healing as an example of sameyness. All those healing powers have differences however. But guess what -- in 5e, the bonus action quick heal is exactly the same among all the classes. Healing word is used by bards, clerics, and druids (and alchemist artificers), and it has 0 differences between the classes.
Good but you know the abilities had different flavor in 4e....so that must make them more samey
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
The ultimate reason why I think 4e has been memefied as samey has been mentioned in the thread: the presentation. A wizard spell, a fighter exploit, a magic item power all have very similar if not identical rules presentation. If you don't play the game or have played it only a little bit, the presentation gives off the impression that everything is the same.

The folks who talk about 4e sameyness don't know about all the options the powers and rituals have. This thread is a prime example.

That also doesn't seem to answer my question. Are you unclear as to what I am asking, or would you prefer not to answer? I don't mind either way, I just don't want to spend time explaining my question if you're not interested in it.
 


Teemu

Hero
That also doesn't seem to answer my question. Are you unclear as to what I am asking, or would you prefer not to answer? I don't mind either way, I just don't want to spend time explaining my question if you're not interested in it.
No, I understand the question. My answer is that the impression of 4e being samey is the result of two things: presentation and lack of knowledge. Of course 4e powers and rituals look samey and less powerful if you only know what 4e Magic Missile, Cleave, and Magic Mouth can do, but are unaware of Mordenkainen’s Mansion, Water’s Gift, and Quick Portal.
 


pemerton

Legend
For purposes of discussing the range of out-of-combat abilities provided by 4e rituals (and to what extent it covers the range of such abilities in other editions) I don't think it's useful to consider that the DM can expand the capabilities of 4e rituals at their table, just as I don't think it's useful to consider that the DM can expand the capabilities of 5e spells at their table.
<snip>

I know you're more willing to consider such DM expansion as integral to the game, and that's cool with me--I'm only trying to explain where my opinion comes from.
Like some other posters who have responded to this, I think your reference to "DM expansion" is a mischaracterisation. In contrast to AD&D, and to 3E and 5e as best I understand them, 4e takes it as a premise that manipulating magical effects - including rituals - is something that can be done via an action declaration resolved by way of a skill check. There are innumerable published examples of this, mostly in relation to various sorts of skill challenges and traps/hazards but also (as per the Speak with Dead example) rituals.

I posted a simple example above, and I'll elaborate on it slightly. In AD&D, there is no canonical way of resolving the following action declaration: I say a prayer to the Raen Queen to weaken the undead before me, other than via the Turn Undead mechanics. And only clerics and level 3+ paladins have access to those mechanics.

In 4e, there is a canonical way of resolving that action declaration: it's set out on p 42, and I quoted some of it earlier. The worked example on p 42 is an attack + push attack, analogous to a standard rogue or fighter attack power. But the prayer can equally be resolved the same way, analogous to the Turn Undead or similar anti-undead encounter attack powers.

When it comes to out-of-combat actions, like modifying portals, the analogues are not published attack powers but published examples of out-of-combat resolution, such as examples of skill challenges, traps and hazards. @Garthanos has posted suggesting that it would have been helpful for some of those examples to be printed in a more player-facing format. And that's probably true. But that's a matter of presentation and publicatoin strategy - it doesn't affect the question of what the rules of the system actually provide for.

Do you have a citation that supports the idea that characters have the IC ability to modify portals? Or is your assertion based on the idea that players can declare any action they want, and if the DM opts to permit it, the character necessarily has the ability to accomplish that action?
Characters have the abiity, in the fiction, to try and manipulate magical effects. This is exemplified by all the published examples of traps, hazards and skill challenges that contemplate such manipulation taking place, and being resolved typically by way of an Arcana check. Here's an example from the DMG, p 93:

Symbol of Suffering
Trap: Anyone familiar with magic recognises the symbol as a powerful ward against approach . . .

Countermeasures: An adjacent character can disable the trap with a DC 36 Thievery check or a DC 32 Arcana check.​

And here's one from the DMG 2, p 90:

Opening the Ninth Ward
To reach the vilains sanctuary or the repository of a might artefact deep in a dungeon, the characters must bypass a powerfu magical ward that binds the doors. . . .

Arcana (moderate DC by level, 10 minutes): A character can use Arcana to sense the presenc of magic and identify the nature of the ward. Additional successes indicate a breaking of the ward through arcane means.​

Rendering a portal two-way that is, by default, one-way, is an example of manipulating a magical effect. It's the GM's job to establish the resolution framework (eg single skill check, or skill challenge) and adjudicate that. The DMG and DMG 2 reiterate that the GM should be saying "yes" to this sort of thing - ie facilitating it by establishing an appropriate adjudication framework, using the examples provided as guidelines - rather than shutting it down.

I don't know enough about 5e to comment on whether it adopts a similar approach. I know that AD&D does not, and I don't believe that 3E does either.

Skill challenges are a resolution method, not a character ability. I don't see how skill challenges are relevant to the question of what strategic-layer abilities characters have.
As someone (I think @doctorbadwolf) already posted upthread, skill challenges are the resolution framework for resolving "strategic" actions. So the strategic-layer abilities that players have are those player-side resources that feed into skill challenges. As I already posted, skills and rituals are the primary resources here; powers, action points, hp/healing surges and gp are secondary resources.

So you can't know what strategic layer abilities a 4e mage (for instance) has until you know what are the feasiable action declarations for the player of that mage in an appropriately framed skill challenge. Naturally this is going to vary from table to table, hence why 4e is (in this respect) more like Fate or Cortex+ Heroic and less like 3E, Rolemaster or (perhaps?) 5e.

The features of 4e that are being identified as "samey" - symmetrical resource suites with common recharge times across all the various PC builds - are crucial to facilitating this. For instance, the DMG 2 can coherently say (I'm now paraphrasing pp 85-86) spending an encounter power in a skill challenge is equivalent to succeeding at a secondary skill check (eg give a bonus to another check or open up the use of another skill). This is the principle that underpins the example I posted upthread, where the bard uses his magical mastery of song to counteract the cries of the trapped demon (mechanically, spends a song-related encounter power to open up Diplomacy as a skill to use in the challenge).

You can't state or apply such a principle in a system that doesn't have a robust and shared framework of PC abilities. (Hence why some 4e players are a bit antsy about psionics and even moreso about Essentials PCs - they don't interact in a clear fashion with the resource economy of the game.)
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
@Garthanos and @doctorbadwolf, with regards to skill challenges and character abilities:

As I described here, my overall intent in this thread is to explain why I personally find 4e's powers to be "samey". As part of doing so, I have made numerous references to "character abilities". I'm using that term here to refer to abilities granted to the character via their class(es), race, feats, backgrounds, rituals, and other features of character building.

I recongize that other definitions of "character abilities" exist, including a much broader one that includes anything the DM permits the characters to do at their table. Under that definition, I acknowledge that resolution methods are important to determining the scope of what the characters can practically accomplish in the fiction at a particular table.

Since I am not using that broader definition as I attempt to communicate why 4e's powers feel samey to me, I don't think resolution methods are relevant to my explanation.
The uses of skills aren’t something that the DM lets you do in 4e, they’re a character ability.
 

Xetheral

Three-Headed Sirrush
Like some other posters who have responded to this, I think your reference to "DM expansion" is a mischaracterisation. In contrast to AD&D, and to 3E and 5e as best I understand them, 4e takes it as a premise that manipulating magical effects - including rituals - is something that can be done via an action declaration resolved by way of a skill check. There are innumerable published examples of this, mostly in relation to various sorts of skill challenges and traps/hazards but also (as per the Speak with Dead example) rituals.

I posted a simple example above, and I'll elaborate on it slightly. In AD&D, there is no canonical way of resolving the following action declaration: I say a prayer to the Raen Queen to weaken the undead before me, other than via the Turn Undead mechanics. And only clerics and level 3+ paladins have access to those mechanics.

In 4e, there is a canonical way of resolving that action declaration: it's set out on p 42, and I quoted some of it earlier. The worked example on p 42 is an attack + push attack, analogous to a standard rogue or fighter attack power. But the prayer can equally be resolved the same way, analogous to the Turn Undead or similar anti-undead encounter attack powers.

When it comes to out-of-combat actions, like modifying portals, the analogues are not published attack powers but published examples of out-of-combat resolution, such as examples of skill challenges, traps and hazards. @Garthanos has posted suggesting that it would have been helpful for some of those examples to be printed in a more player-facing format. And that's probably true. But that's a matter of presentation and publicatoin strategy - it doesn't affect the question of what the rules of the system actually provide for.

Characters have the abiity, in the fiction, to try and manipulate magical effects. This is exemplified by all the published examples of traps, hazards and skill challenges that contemplate such manipulation taking place, and being resolved typically by way of an Arcana check. Here's an example from the DMG, p 93:

Symbol of Suffering
Trap: Anyone familiar with magic recognises the symbol as a powerful ward against approach . . .​
Countermeasures: An adjacent character can disable the trap with a DC 36 Thievery check or a DC 32 Arcana check.​

And here's one from the DMG 2, p 90:

Opening the Ninth Ward
To reach the vilains sanctuary or the repository of a might artefact deep in a dungeon, the characters must bypass a powerfu magical ward that binds the doors. . . .​
Arcana (moderate DC by level, 10 minutes): A character can use Arcana to sense the presenc of magic and identify the nature of the ward. Additional successes indicate a breaking of the ward through arcane means.​

Rendering a portal two-way that is, by default, one-way, is an example of manipulating a magical effect. It's the GM's job to establish the resolution framework (eg single skill check, or skill challenge) and adjudicate that. The DMG and DMG 2 reiterate that the GM should be saying "yes" to this sort of thing - ie facilitating it by establishing an appropriate adjudication framework, using the examples provided as guidelines - rather than shutting it down.

I don't know enough about 5e to comment on whether it adopts a similar approach. I know that AD&D does not, and I don't believe that 3E does either.

As someone (I think @doctorbadwolf) already posted upthread, skill challenges are the resolution framework for resolving "strategic" actions. So the strategic-layer abilities that players have are those player-side resources that feed into skill challenges. As I already posted, skills and rituals are the primary resources here; powers, action points, hp/healing surges and gp are secondary resources.

So you can't know what strategic layer abilities a 4e mage (for instance) has until you know what are the feasiable action declarations for the player of that mage in an appropriately framed skill challenge. Naturally this is going to vary from table to table, hence why 4e is (in this respect) more like Fate or Cortex+ Heroic and less like 3E, Rolemaster or (perhaps?) 5e.

The features of 4e that are being identified as "samey" - symmetrical resource suites with common recharge times across all the various PC builds - are crucial to facilitating this. For instance, the DMG 2 can coherently say (I'm now paraphrasing pp 85-86) spending an encounter power in a skill challenge is equivalent to succeeding at a secondary skill check (eg give a bonus to another check or open up the use of another skill). This is the principle that underpins the example I posted upthread, where the bard uses his magical mastery of song to counteract the cries of the trapped demon (mechanically, spends a song-related encounter power to open up Diplomacy as a skill to use in the challenge).

You can't state or apply such a principle in a system that doesn't have a robust and shared framework of PC abilities. (Hence why some 4e players are a bit antsy about psionics and even moreso about Essentials PCs - they don't interact in a clear fashion with the resource economy of the game.)

Thanks for providing another in-depth response. I can't agree with your conclusion, however, that 4e necessarily supports expanding rituals beyond their printed descriptions. Most of the examples you've provided are of DM-placed obstacles that happen to provide for an arcana skill check to circumvent them, and I don't see that as supporting a general conclusion that the rules permit expanding rituals. The example you posted concerning the Speak with Dead ritual also appears to be a DM-placed complication for a ritual, rather than a player trying to add functionality to a ritual.

Similarly, I see nothing on page 42 about expanding printed character abilities like powers or rituals. Instead, the focus on page 42 seems to be about resolving actions that the DM determines to be within a character's abilities, rather than making printed abilities more powerful.

But, as the experience of posters in this thread suggests, there clearly exist tables where rituals are permitted to be more flexible and powerful than the descriptions in the book suggest. Great! Maybe at those tables I wouldn't mind as much that 4e powers feel "samey" to me due to lacking strategic-layer options, becuase the open-ended rituals would better fill the gap than the printed rituals do.
 

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