D&D 4E Are powers samey?

[Garthanos]

The features of 4e that are being identified as "samey" - symmetrical resource suites with common recharge times across all the various PC builds - are crucial to facilitating this. For instance, the DMG 2 can coherently say (I'm now paraphrasing pp 85-86) spending an encounter power in a skill challenge is equivalent to succeeding at a secondary skill check (eg give a bonus to another check or open up the use of another skill). This is the principle that underpins the example I posted upthread, where the bard uses his magical mastery of song to counteract the cries of the trapped demon (mechanically, spends a song-related encounter power to open up Diplomacy as a skill to use in the challenge).

And on page 42 resolutions allowing people to expend a different power use or my preference modifying one so that it does more based on the situation. Note how this parallels our discussion about making a portal bi-directional using an Arcana skill. I think a commonly available resource for extra effort is necessary but could it be 5e HD, instead?

 

[Teemu]

And as far as the mundane vs magical distinction is concerned: there’s still a difference in 4e. You can’t polymorph with ”mundane” powers, or summon creatures. It’s not as if all the power sources cover identical effects.

 

[Garthanos]

And as far as the mundane vs magical distinction is concerned: there’s still a difference in 4e. You can’t polymorph with ”mundane” powers, or summon creatures. It’s not as if all the power sources cover identical effects.

Nor Teleport with mundane ability though shifting large distances in combat can be similar for short range teleport.

 

[Xetheral]

I talked about this in the part you left out. 5e spells are better at bypassing challenges because they are more likely to be binary and don’t require checks nearly as often. Curing diseases is a great example that happens in lower to mid level play. The 5e phantom steed has no checks involved to determine how powerful the mount is.

Thank you, this explanation helps. Apparently I misunderstood why you agreed with me about 4e powers and rituals not being as effective as 5e spells for bypassing encounters. We aren't in nearly as much agreement as I thought, which makes the rest of the exchange more understandable. I appreciate you taking the time to work through it with me.

The reason why I think your impression is colored by lack of knowledge is because you’ve pointed out a scenario that is supposedly not possible in 4e as an argument to support the claim that 5e feels less samey; but that scenario is in fact possible in 4e. And there are scenarios in 4e that can’t happen in 5e.

My 4e knowledge is indeed very dated. I played 4e roughly weekly for about a year, and that was a long time ago. But I don't understand why that is particularly relevant: I've repeatedly clarified that my teleportation example was illustrative--it wasn't offered as an argument or in support of an argument, so its accuracy (or lack thereof) only affects its value as an aid to communication.

Again, as I detailed here, I'm only trying to explain why 4e's powers feel samey to me, personally.

 

[Teemu]

Thank you, this explanation helps. Apparently I misunderstood why you agreed with me about 4e powers and rituals not being as effective as 5e spells for bypassing encounters. We aren't in nearly as much agreement as I thought, which makes the rest of the exchange more understandable. I appreciate you taking the time to work through it with me.



My 4e knowledge is indeed very dated. I played 4e roughly weekly for about a year, and that was a long time ago. But I don't understand why that is particularly relevant: I've repeatedly clarified that my teleportation example was illustrative--it wasn't offered as an argument or in support of an argument, so its accuracy (or lack thereof) only affects its value as an aid to communication.

Again, as I detailed here, I'm only trying to explain why 4e's powers feel samey to me, personally.

Here’s the thing. You weren’t aware of the full extent of 4e ritual magic. I and others have also pointed out powers that are very varied and provide all kinds of effects. Could it be possible that your impression is faulty because you simply are not aware of all the things published 4e powers (there are literally thousands) can accomplish?

 

[Hussar]

Backing up a bit.

By the end of 4e's run, there were several thousand powers spread across the classes. How many thousand? I don't know, but, I do know that it was thousands. So, yeah, there's going to be overlap between powers particularly in view of the fact that a given power had to be slotted into the level system. There's just only so many things you can do with a 1st level power after all.

So, yeah, the argument that there are many powers in 4e that are similar in effect does have a fair basis in fact. Of course there are - sheer numbers will account for that. But, that's not the end of the story. Sure, several classes might have a similar effect power. That's true. But, what are the chances that two characters in the same group would have that, given that there are literally hundreds of powers to choose from at any given level?

Just because a power does 2d6+con in a blast three that pushes targets 2 squares (which there are a number of powers, I'm sure that do something pretty similar - I randomly picked Howl of Doom - 7th level Warlock, Thunderwave - a Wizard at will - does pretty much the same thing) what are the odds that a given group will actually see both of those in the same game?

Note, a couple of overlapping powers isn't exactly differentiating 4e from any other edition - every edition has that - in order to be "samey" we need the perception that the overlap is so significant that it becomes noticeable.

So, I wonder just how much this criticism of sameyness is simply based on reading and not on actual play. Which, frankly, is something that 4e suffers from a LOT. It does get back to presentation. After all, if there are ten different powers with the same effect, then the game is samey, no? Well, not really. Because, sure, there are similar effect powers, but, the likelihood of actually seeing that at the table is very small because of the sheer number of powers that aren't similar.

Imagine if 5e presented itself like 4e did. Where every overlapping spell was presented separately with each class - healing word appearing six times in exactly the same form. Well, really, virtually every single spell and combat style in the game appears in at least two classes. We'd see the exact same criticisms of saminess in 5e. But, because 5e is written in such a way that you don't really see just how similar the classes are, all we really see are the differences because those differences are so strongly highlighted, we avoid the criticism.

 

[Garthanos]

Imagine if 5e presented itself like 4e did. Where every overlapping spell was presented separately with each class - healing word appearing six times in exactly the same form. Well, really, virtually every single spell and combat style in the game appears in at least two classes.

Imagine if every class with a Extra attack had Martial Takedown, Grab and Strike and Pressing Attack. As cantrips
You have to use the samey words remember

 

[Teemu]

Nor Teleport with mundane ability though shifting large distances in combat can be similar for short range teleport.

Similar but definitely not identical. You can’t shift across a chasm (without a fly speed), or up a tree or onto a roof (without a climb speed). You can’t simply shift out of a grab, or avoid triggered punishes from soldier type enemies (some of which do trigger off shifting). I just want to point this out since the 4e meme of all classes being the same is fed off these ideas that everything is too similar (when it’s not).

 

[Garthanos]

Similar but definitely not identical. You can’t shift across a chasm (without a fly speed), or up a tree or onto a roof (without a climb speed). You can’t simply shift out of a grab, or avoid triggered punishes from soldier type enemies (some of which do trigger off shifting). I just want to point this out since the 4e meme of all classes being the same is fed off these ideas that everything is too similar (when it’s not).

Oh yeh I have a huge post about what it takes to make for "martial flight"... its tremendous, could do one about teleport too.

 

[Garthanos]

Imagine if every class with a Extra attack had Martial Takedown, Grab and Strike and Pressing Attack. As cantrips
You have to use the samey words remember

The point I am making is that sometimes "structure" really is also just a presentational distinction.