D&D General A paladin just joined the group. I'm a necromancer.

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Not every game does that. Some games, especially with newer players, don’t plan out the campaign or character advancement in advance.

Lanefan, what if the player asked if they could look like one of your approved races, but keep Tiefling stats?
Wouldn't happen. Couldn't happen.

If you're a particular race your stats get adjusted as that race, period. And if you somehow permanently change race then your stats get adjusted again to suit the new one, thus the idea of having a character who used to be a Tiefling before being perma-changed into an Elf would be a cool background story but not affect the stats in the slightest; it'd be statted as an Elf.

I presume most long term DM’s, at least try to work with players on their goals.
Depends what those goals are.

If the goal is to try to get something into the game that otherwise doesn't exist in or fit in the setting*, or that's simply overpowered for the party**, then no - I'm not going to encourage that. Instead, I'm going to shut it down.

* - this would be the Tiefling example
** - thinking of a player I once had who spent a long time and a lot of effort trying to lobby me into allowing a Vampire as a PC in a 5th-6th level 1e-style party...

An extreme application of the position of: my way or the highway, will eventually leave someone just playing with themselves.
Perhaps, but if done right there's enough elements within the "my way" option to keep players coming back for more.
 

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So "Every entry for every undead in every edition of the game" calls them evil.

Except Ghosts
Except Revenants
Except the Player Character Option
Except Deathless (created by dieties and can be motivated by regret)
Except the Spore Zombies of Ravinica who aren't using evil magic (see below)
Except Archliches which were explicitly "any non-evil alignment"
Except the Blood of Vol from Eberron

Do your PCs have any way to create any of those things (other than spore zombies)? In any edition of the game? Because then we can talk about whether or not those abilities are evil.

However, in this discussion we're currently talking about a Necromancer creating undead using animate dead from the Player's Handbook to create skeletons and zombies exactly as described in the Monster Manual entries... the exceptions are just not relevant. Even in editions that allowed you to create other types of undead, you were still creating explicitly evil undead from the Monster Manual. The tone of the game since Basic D&D and AD&D is that creating undead is not good (or not lawful in the case of Basic).

I also don't see where the Blood of Vol isn't an evil organization. Bone Knights can't be good aligned. Undead Karnnathi are evil aligned. Karnnath itself seems like the result of a successful undead cult that resulted in a Lawful Evil kingdom.

So, yes, exceptions exist. Exceptions that prove the rule. Exceptions that aren't relevant to this discussion because they're not what are being created.

And while I have looked at the monster manual, repeatedly, I still contend that if we want to talk about the creation of undead, the fact that none of that makes its way into the actual act of creating the undead gives us options. The spell Animate Dead does not say you must use an evil spirit. Therefore, I do not see why I must use an evil spirit?

Who says you use an evil spirit? You can use any spirit, add magic, and then add evil. The very act of creating undead is itself evil and will itself twist the spirit into evil. That's why lots of undead seek out good aligned creatures.

Because I'm creating a zombie and the zombie stablock says they are evil?

Yes, but that's not the part that makes them unassailably evil murder machines. That's in the monster description, which is somewhat beyond the scope of the stat block. Just because another creature or ability might inherit the stat block of a zombie does not mean that it is identical in all ways to a zombie. Stat blocks are a subset of a creature entry, not the whole of it.

But, yes, the stat block does make them evil. That's literally how that works. If the designers had wanted otherwise, they would have specifically added an exception that you should use a different alignment. Wild Shape and polymorph both state that.

No, it's not a problem that there's a player's option that can explicitly create undead in Ravnica. It's not a special case at all. After all, animate dead and necromancers are explicitly listed in the PHB, and they're also explicitly described creating undead as essentially evil unless you've got a really good reason. So evil options already exist in the PHB. Why wouldn't a Golgari druid be evil or evil inclined? The Golgari are black/green. If you're tapping lands for black mana, you are not joining The Avengers.

There are also important differences between Fungal Infestation and animate dead. First, Fungal Infestation grants perfect control. It's never lost. Second, Fungal Infestation creates undead for a limited time: 1 hour, after which it dies. So the Circle of Spores druid can never create an uncontrolled mindless killing machine. Even if the druid dies, so will her creations less than an hour later and they do not act unless directed. However, in the end this doesn't really matter. The creature is still undead and still evil. There's very little reason to think that the PHB's proscription against creating undead wouldn't apply here. On a gradient it's less evil, but that doesn't mean your means are justified.

Then the mold used to make Spore Zombies is evil. As a plant. Which leads to a beakdown of that evil you are talking about.

It's not just the spores acting. The spore and the Fungal Infection ability, whose mechanism is not described. It just says, "your spores gain the ability to infest a corpse and animate it." In the same way that your fireball or your arrow damaging another creature doesn't mean it's the fireball or the arrow that takes the moral responsibility, just because they're your spores doesn't mean it's not you doing it. The spores may just as easily be a conduit for your power rather than being a power unto themselves. Given that their ability to operate is a function of your power, that seems rather plausible.

Evil is a measurable force is DnD?

Measurable as in directly observable? Yes. Roughly half the outer planes are created from matter that is made of evil. Measurable as in quantifiable? Not that we would understand in our world. What units would it translate to? There's no real-world equivalent to tangible evil any more than there's an equivalent for how magic works. It's fantasy to our world, but it's tangible reality to the game's multiverse.

We can agree on that. Good dieties allow their clerics to cast this spell, using their magic. Are Good Dieties' magic evil?

By definition, no. That's one of the consequences of tangible good and evil. They become objective reality and therefore objective forces. Moral relativity is as alien and fantastic a concept to the game's multiverse as M.C. Escher's drawings are to our reality. This is one of the problems that D&D's alignment system has, because it can make certain narrative elements impossible or unlikely (e.g., fallen angels).

Of course, because it's all fiction there's nothing stopping the DM from breaking the consequences of this rule. Most tables hand wave that away, but in strictest terms it's an error on the part of the DM's world building for a good deity, unaffected by any outside influence, to do something objectively evil.

Evil is a fundamental force that they oppose, measurable, so how much evil magic do the gods of good contain?

The average good deity contains 6.154 megarogers, where 1 rogers is the amount of good Mr. Rogers created on the average day.

Just because we as players can't quantify it doesn't make it impossible for a different reality to quantify it. We can't. It's not quantifiable in our world. Maybe it works like Dragonball Z power levels. Who knows? Do you think that characters in the game world understand what 1 XP is? Or 1 hp? Or +1 AC? Or +2 Str? Or what advantage is? There is a layer of abstraction which separate player and character, and it exists on both sides.

Yes, everything you have said describes one type of undead, but nothing in the entry for necromancy, Animate Dead, or considering the logic tree, even the statblocks, prevents us from making a different type of undead.

That is exactly incorrect. The first paragraph of Animate Dead explicitly outlines exactly what you can create:

"This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a zombie if you chose a corpse (the GM has the creature's game statistics)."

"Skeleton" and "zombie" are not creature types. They're not listed on MM pp7-8. They're named creature entries. You don't get to say, "Oh, I can create anything named zombie." That's not how that works.

Creating a zombie will create a zombie exactly as it exists in the MM. Creating a creature that uses the zombie stat block will create a creature that only uses the just stat block. Those are two different things, and they intentionally use different language. They are described differently by design. Animate dead creates a zombie. Fungal Infection creates a creature that uses the zombie statblock.

And, I've broken the land mine analogy already while discussing with Cap'n Kobold.

It's not an analogy. It's just a comparison. You'll notice that undead aren't small metal objects buried in the ground, either, for example, but that doesn't make the comparison false. Sharing one characteristic doesn't mean they share all characteristics. They're two things that kill indiscriminately, and that's the end of the comparison. If you want to argue that land mines don't kill indiscriminately you can certainly try, but you should know there's an exceptionally overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
So "Every entry for every undead in every edition of the game" calls them evil.

Except Ghosts
In 1e Ghosts were LE as per the MM, but Skeletons and Zombies were N. Somewhere along the line these seem to have got reversed.
Except Revenants
Agreed. Coffer Corpse in 1e is, if memory serves, also not necessarily Evil.
Except the Player Character Option
Undead can be PCs? Where's the 'official' for this one?
Except Deathless (created by dieties and can be motivated by regret)
Except the Spore Zombies of Ravinica who aren't using evil magic
Except Archliches which were explicitly "any non-evil alignment"
Except the Blood of Vol from Eberron
I'll dismiss Spore Zombies and Blood of Vol right away, as those appear to be setting-specific. Can't speak for anyone else, but all I care about here are baseline defaults.

Can't speak to Deathless as until now I've never heard of 'em.

But Archliches are specifically called out as non-Evil? Interesting. I'd always seen Archliches along the same lines as Demiliches, i.e. simply an evolved and more powerful version of a standard Lich.

I agree there's some (rather uncommon in 5e, common as dirt in 1e) undead that aren't necessarily Evil in and of themselves, but even there I still can't find my way to saying that creation of such is anything else other than Evil.

And while I have looked at the monster manual, repeatedly, I still contend that if we want to talk about the creation of undead, the fact that none of that makes its way into the actual act of creating the undead gives us options. The spell Animate Dead does not say you must use an evil spirit. Therefore, I do not see why I must use an evil spirit?
The evil-spirit argument is someone else's.

My take on it is this, in 5e where the minor undead the spell creates are specifically listed as being Evil, the act of creating them - i.e. the act of creating something Evil where previously there was none - is itself Evil.

Because I'm creating a zombie and the zombie stablock says they are evil?
Exactly.

Then the mold used to make Spore Zombies is evil. As a plant. Which leads to a beakdown of that evil you are talking about.
Not quite.

When you're a spellcaster creating a Zombie you're doing so as an intelligent being, with intent and purpose and by choice. You know what youre doing, and have the ability to choose to not do it.

When mold makes a Spore Zombie there's no choice or intent involved, if for no other reason than the mold doesn't have enough intelligence to have intentions or make choices. It just does what it does.

Evil is a measurable force is DnD? We can agree on that. Good dieties allow their clerics to cast this spell, using their magic. Are Good Dieties' magic evil? Evil is a fundamental force that they oppose, measurable, so how much evil magic do the gods of good contain?
As I suggested earlier (and for some reason got shot down on, though I'll stand by it) just because a deity grants you a spell doesn't mean anything. You still have the moral and ethical choice over whether to ever cast it or not, and in what circumstances, and for what reasons.
 

And if Evil is so arbitrary that we have no guidelines other than "well what do you think" then it isn't absolute, is it?
How many people would someone in your game have to murder before they became evil? Would doing it in a good cause mean that they could murder more before being evil?

Some things can exist in a D&D game without having to be expressed in numbers.

It is a matter of logic, honestly.

Many posters have stated that good and evil in the DnD multiverse is absolute, it is a force, it is measurable, it is not a matter of opinion. Therefore if Evil is an absolute force, like gravity, then the point where you become evil is measurable. There is a mathematical proof of how many undead it takes being created how quickly makes you "evil".
Whoever said that was really reaching beyond anything that I've spotted in this thread. On the face of it it seems like they're attempting to draw a parallel between the numbers-based mechanics of D&D like HP or movement speed and alignment. On the face of it it seems weird, but they could be using some sort of "alignment slider", or possibly something similar to the Madness or Honour mechanics in the DMG.
- I'm going to have to actually read the post where someone claimed that before I judge it too harshly.

But, if it is a judgement call, like you prefer to make it, then it is subjective, not absolute. And if it is subjective, then an act by itself cannot be called evil. "Only Evil people cast this spell frequently" is then nonsense, because the act of casting the spell is not evil, it is the use of that spell in the context and the repercussions from using it within that context.

That is why I keep arguing. Because either you can provide a solid, definitive statement, like summoning 5 zombies in a day makes you evil, and here is where it states that. Or, it is subjective, a matter of opinion, and then most of the RAW that people keep throwing at me, is wrong.
So . . . you're saying that RAW doesn't apply in any case that cannot be expressed as a mathematical formula in the ruleset? I'm not entirely sure whether your quibble is with the rules, or the semantics.

Very well. I'd suggest that you use a value of anywhere between 20 to 700 mN when casting the Animate dead spell to animate a Skeleton, dependent upon situation and mitigating factors.
 

Greenfield

Adventurer
Reminds me of a discussion I had on another forum regarding long distance movement. Someone quoted a rule from the book, and my counterpart replied, "But that's wrong". (The rule involved treating run/walk combinations as "Hustle", for purposes of endurance and exhaustion, IIRC).

Saying that rules as written are "Illegitimate", or "wrong" in that case, implies that someone knows the rules better than the book does, or at least thinks they do. Kind of silly, when you think about it.

Outside of errata, written rules are the rules. Any Dm is free to vary from them in their own campaign world, but unless that happens then the infamous Rule Zero applies. If the DM accepts the rules, as written, be it on Necromancy or movement or the weight of a frog for that matter, then those are the rules at that table, period.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Do your PCs have any way to create any of those things (other than spore zombies)? In any edition of the game? Because then we can talk about whether or not those abilities are evil.

However, in this discussion we're currently talking about a Necromancer creating undead using animate dead from the Player's Handbook to create skeletons and zombies exactly as described in the Monster Manual entries... the exceptions are just not relevant. Even in editions that allowed you to create other types of undead, you were still creating explicitly evil undead from the Monster Manual. The tone of the game since Basic D&D and AD&D is that creating undead is not good (or not lawful in the case of Basic).

I also don't see where the Blood of Vol isn't an evil organization. Bone Knights can't be good aligned. Undead Karnnathi are evil aligned. Karnnath itself seems like the result of a successful undead cult that resulted in a Lawful Evil kingdom.

So, yes, exceptions exist. Exceptions that prove the rule. Exceptions that aren't relevant to this discussion because they're not what are being created.

Firstly, I thought the Blood of Vol were the ancestor worshiping Elves from Eberron. I'm not familiar with Bone Knights?

Quick Wiki search


Ah, seems I was talking about the Aerenal Elves and the Undying Court. This is what happens when I do not confirm my sources. Still, I would note that the Eberron wiki page I found does mention that the Undying Court is specifically powered by "positive energy"


But, it seems none of that matters because we can only talk about player abilities. So, let us talk about player abilities. (Continued below)



Who says you use an evil spirit? You can use any spirit, add magic, and then add evil. The very act of creating undead is itself evil and will itself twist the spirit into evil. That's why lots of undead seek out good aligned creatures.

Double foul for not reading the spell or the MM entry. Firstly, Undead do not care if you are good or evil according to the MM. They attack "the living". So, in fact, undead do not seek out good aligned creatures. In fact, as has been mentioned, they do not seek out the living at all. The MM entry puts it very clearly that they are wandering aimlessly until they encounter a living thing, then attack. Of course, none of that really matters, because now we turn to the spell.

The spell states "This spell creates an Undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small Humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an Undead creature. "

So, where does it say we add Evil into the magic? In fact, it doesn't even give us a real cause to suspect we even use a spirit at all. The spell and the magic are it.

Now, I see you looking at the phrase "foul mimicry of life". To be fair, it does seem to be language to indicate we've done something wrong. But, a poorly performed play could also be called a "foul mimicry of life" so it is hard to use such language to justify "this is evil magic creating a murder machine"

And, the murder machine part is only from the MM. The spell itself is silent on what the undead do when you lose control of them. Instead, it tells you what they do when you give them no orders, which is "If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against Hostile creatures. Once given an order, the creature continues to follow it until its task is complete."

Now, this is a problem for the point of "the spell creates monsters exactly like the MM says". Do you know why? Because the MM says you have to command your zombies and skeletons not to attack the living, but in this spell, it specifically says that with no commands, the undead simple stand there and only attack to defend themselves.

So, we don't have evil in the spell. We have good reason to show that uncommanded undead do not attack the living. In fact, there seems to be very little that the MM monsters have in common with the versions created by the spell. Especially considering most Necromancers the party fight also control more than a handful of undead, and they seem to have no problem controlling them, despite the fact that telling the zombies to charge and the skeletons to shoot arrows would take two different bonus actions and the necromancer typically will not use any bonus action to control their undead.

In fact, note that the text of the MM and the statblock make no mention of their requirement to be given a bonus action command from their necromancer. Which, seeing other summoned creatures in other sections of the rules, would be included such as it was for the Artificer's contructs.

So, we have some highly compelling evidence that the spell does not match up with the MM. Which leaves you with a problem, since the spell doesn't do anything you seem to say it does.

Yes, but that's not the part that makes them unassailably evil murder machines. That's in the monster description, which is somewhat beyond the scope of the stat block. Just because another creature or ability might inherit the stat block of a zombie does not mean that it is identical in all ways to a zombie. Stat blocks are a subset of a creature entry, not the whole of it.

But, yes, the stat block does make them evil. That's literally how that works. If the designers had wanted otherwise, they would have specifically added an exception that you should use a different alignment. Wild Shape and polymorph both state that.

No, it's not a problem that there's a player's option that can explicitly create undead in Ravnica. It's not a special case at all. After all, animate dead and necromancers are explicitly listed in the PHB, and they're also explicitly described creating undead as essentially evil unless you've got a really good reason. So evil options already exist in the PHB. Why wouldn't a Golgari druid be evil or evil inclined? The Golgari are black/green. If you're tapping lands for black mana, you are not joining The Avengers.

There are also important differences between Fungal Infestation and animate dead. First, Fungal Infestation grants perfect control. It's never lost. Second, Fungal Infestation creates undead for a limited time: 1 hour, after which it dies. So the Circle of Spores druid can never create an uncontrolled mindless killing machine. Even if the druid dies, so will her creations less than an hour later and they do not act unless directed. However, in the end this doesn't really matter. The creature is still undead and still evil. There's very little reason to think that the PHB's proscription against creating undead wouldn't apply here. On a gradient it's less evil, but that doesn't mean your means are justified.

As far as I understand, black mana is more about death and rot than it is evil. After all, the most common black mana land is a swamp. Swamps are not inherently evil are they? Is rot? Mold? Worms?

And, actually, as pointed out, the alignment stat itself is called out to be mutable in the beginning text of the MM. So, in fact, every single alignment entry could be prefaced with a "usually" in front of it.

Now, I will grant you that the spore zombies are much shorter lived than the ones created by the spell. However, that should not matter for the purposes of our discussion. A zombie created and killed within a minute because it was fighting was still created by the spell. The length of it's existence does not change the alignment issues.

But, if you would like to make mold evil, please explain why the mold is evil. The only person willing to step up to that claimed the mold was evil because it was willing to kill to spread and create more of itself. This of course would apply to every living thing. Cows would be evil for killing grass. Farmers would be evil for killing cows. The entire concept of good and evil would be thrown out.


It's not just the spores acting. The spore and the Fungal Infection ability, whose mechanism is not described. It just says, "your spores gain the ability to infest a corpse and animate it." In the same way that your fireball or your arrow damaging another creature doesn't mean it's the fireball or the arrow that takes the moral responsibility, just because they're your spores doesn't mean it's not you doing it. The spores may just as easily be a conduit for your power rather than being a power unto themselves. Given that their ability to operate is a function of your power, that seems rather plausible.

Ah, you did.

So, it isn't the mold that is evil. The mold is merely a conduit for your power. And your power is evil.

Why?

If I use telekinesis to move a body, is that evil? I simply have put spores in a body, and commanded those spores to move the muscles of the body. This is an application of physics. Where is the evil power here?



By definition, no. That's one of the consequences of tangible good and evil. They become objective reality and therefore objective forces. Moral relativity is as alien and fantastic a concept to the game's multiverse as M.C. Escher's drawings are to our reality. This is one of the problems that D&D's alignment system has, because it can make certain narrative elements impossible or unlikely (e.g., fallen angels).

Of course, because it's all fiction there's nothing stopping the DM from breaking the consequences of this rule. Most tables hand wave that away, but in strictest terms it's an error on the part of the DM's world building for a good deity, unaffected by any outside influence, to do something objectively evil.

Then RAW has made an error, because Good Deities are doing something evil.

Or, that something is not in fact evil, and the RAW did not make an error.




That is exactly incorrect. The first paragraph of Animate Dead explicitly outlines exactly what you can create:

"This spell creates an undead servant. Choose a pile of bones or a corpse of a Medium or Small humanoid within range. Your spell imbues the target with a foul mimicry of life, raising it as an undead creature. The target becomes a skeleton if you chose bones or a zombie if you chose a corpse (the GM has the creature's game statistics)."

"Skeleton" and "zombie" are not creature types. They're not listed on MM pp7-8. They're named creature entries. You don't get to say, "Oh, I can create anything named zombie." That's not how that works.

Creating a zombie will create a zombie exactly as it exists in the MM. Creating a creature that uses the zombie stat block will create a creature that only uses the just stat block. Those are two different things, and they intentionally use different language. They are described differently by design. Animate dead creates a zombie. Fungal Infection creates a creature that uses the zombie statblock.

Except, they don't work like the spell says they should work.

The necromancer can command some zombies to charge, others to close the door, while a group of skeleton guards create a shield wall and the others fire volleys at the party.

This is impossible to do according to the spell, because it takes a bonus action to give all undead a single order. Yet, I imagine no player would even think to question the necromancer doing so.

The MM says I need to command the undead not to attack the living. The spells says if you give no commands, the undead stands there and only defends itself.

The MM says I need an evil spirit and dark magic. The Spell says nothing about a spirit and can be cast using goodly magic from the gods of light.

The spell and the MM seem to be talking about two separate types of undead. Which makes all the RAW assumptions of the MM moot, because they aren't matching up anyways.



It's not an analogy. It's just a comparison. You'll notice that undead aren't small metal objects buried in the ground, either, for example, but that doesn't make the comparison false. Sharing one characteristic doesn't mean they share all characteristics. They're two things that kill indiscriminately, and that's the end of the comparison. If you want to argue that land mines don't kill indiscriminately you can certainly try, but you should know there's an exceptionally overwhelming amount of evidence to the contrary.

The reasoning behind the analogy is that they can be left behind and do harm to those who come across them unaware.

Glyph of Warding does that.
Constructs do that.
Druid Grove spell does that

Lots of things can do that.

Only undead are called out as evil?

If undead are evil because of the land mine analogy, then Stone Golems are evil for the same reason. If one is evil and the other is not, it is not because of the land mine analogy, so the land mine analogy fails.

I do not understand how that seems to be a difficult logical step. If the fact that it can be left behind and be dangerous to anyone running across it makes it evil, then much more than undead are evil. If those things are not evil, then undead are not evil for that reason, and if you want them to remain evil, you need a different reason.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Undead can be PCs? Where's the 'official' for this one?

Hollow One from Wildemount was the option

I think we have seen a few different UAs that cover similar ground though. (I remember the rogue UA from a while back, there was a warlock, and I think an undead sorcerer?)


I agree there's some (rather uncommon in 5e, common as dirt in 1e) undead that aren't necessarily Evil in and of themselves, but even there I still can't find my way to saying that creation of such is anything else other than Evil.

So, you want to take the position that creating something that is not evil should be considered evil?


My take on it is this, in 5e where the minor undead the spell creates are specifically listed as being Evil, the act of creating them - i.e. the act of creating something Evil where previously there was none - is itself Evil.

Exactly.

As I went into some detail with Bacon Bit though, there is very good reason to believe that the spell is creating something different than what the MM states. Which means we are not creating something evil, but something neutral. Which would therefore be a neutral act.



As I suggested earlier (and for some reason got shot down on, though I'll stand by it) just because a deity grants you a spell doesn't mean anything. You still have the moral and ethical choice over whether to ever cast it or not, and in what circumstances, and for what reasons.

I have issues with the gods giving you powers that are clearly defined as evil (as people seem to be claiming) and then just... expecting people not to use them. If you are a good diety, don't give someone evil powers. Seems like that would be the norm.

And while it might be a design thing, if the design is meant to emulate the world, then that tells me the world has changed.

How many people would someone in your game have to murder before they became evil? Would doing it in a good cause mean that they could murder more before being evil?

Some things can exist in a D&D game without having to be expressed in numbers.

How many cultists have paladins in your games murdered? How many would they have to kill to be evil?

Goblins? Enemy soldiers?

Adventurers murder people all the time. Doesn't get called out as being evil. Why is this different?


Whoever said that was really reaching beyond anything that I've spotted in this thread. On the face of it it seems like they're attempting to draw a parallel between the numbers-based mechanics of D&D like HP or movement speed and alignment. On the face of it it seems weird, but they could be using some sort of "alignment slider", or possibly something similar to the Madness or Honour mechanics in the DMG.
- I'm going to have to actually read the post where someone claimed that before I judge it too harshly.

I'm adding in the math. It is a logical extension of "this place is made of Evil" and "Evil is real and measurable"

If that is the case, it can be measured, there are formula. Stuff like the "alignment slider" would work. Which means that you would have a "casting animate dead generates 5 points of EVIL" type of mechanic. But we don't. That sort of thing does not exist by RAW, and in fact, RAW seems to point towards being more relativistic in it's approach.

Which makes it very difficult to point to an act and say "this act, no matter the context, is evil" because there are lots of different contexts where it might not be.



So . . . you're saying that RAW doesn't apply in any case that cannot be expressed as a mathematical formula in the ruleset? I'm not entirely sure whether your quibble is with the rules, or the semantics.

Very well. I'd suggest that you use a value of anywhere between 20 to 700 mN when casting the Animate dead spell to animate a Skeleton, dependent upon situation and mitigating factors.

Not quite, I'm saying that if people want to lean on "absolute morality" then they have to be able to offer something solid. If you want to say "the act is evil because we can measure evil in this world" then measure it, tell me where it shows it is evil and how measurable it is.

But, if it ends up mattering what the context is, with how the act is done, with why the act is done, then we aren't talking absolute morality. We are talking relative morality.

And that means the act needs to be judged by the act, not by what people say it is.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Reminds me of a discussion I had on another forum regarding long distance movement. Someone quoted a rule from the book, and my counterpart replied, "But that's wrong". (The rule involved treating run/walk combinations as "Hustle", for purposes of endurance and exhaustion, IIRC).

Saying that rules as written are "Illegitimate", or "wrong" in that case, implies that someone knows the rules better than the book does, or at least thinks they do. Kind of silly, when you think about it.

Outside of errata, written rules are the rules. Any Dm is free to vary from them in their own campaign world, but unless that happens then the infamous Rule Zero applies. If the DM accepts the rules, as written, be it on Necromancy or movement or the weight of a frog for that matter, then those are the rules at that table, period.

And when the rules contradict the rules?
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Hollow One from Wildemount was the option
OK, setting-specific. Gotcha.

I think we have seen a few different UAs that cover similar ground though. (I remember the rogue UA from a while back, there was a warlock, and I think an undead sorcerer?)
None of these sound familiar, though admittedly I don't keep up with every 5e development.

So, you want to take the position that creating something that is not evil should be considered evil?
Kind of, yes, strange though it may sound.

Even in my own game where Skeletons and Zombies are listed as N and occasional other N undead exist, I still see the general concept of undeath as being Evil in itself; thus creating more undead is an extension of that evil.

As I went into some detail with Bacon Bit though, there is very good reason to believe that the spell is creating something different than what the MM states.
Contradictory RAW for the win.

I don't buy it just on principle, and would take the MM as correct when it comes to stuff to do with monsters, which these are.

I have issues with the gods giving you powers that are clearly defined as evil (as people seem to be claiming) and then just... expecting people not to use them. If you are a good diety, don't give someone evil powers. Seems like that would be the norm.
Unless good deities want to test the faith and restraint of their Clerics.

Comes back to my gun example. Other than the military, someone giving me a gun isn't also giving me permission to shoot people with it.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Kind of, yes, strange though it may sound.

Even in my own game where Skeletons and Zombies are listed as N and occasional other N undead exist, I still see the general concept of undeath as being Evil in itself; thus creating more undead is an extension of that evil.

Contradictory RAW for the win.

Well, if you are okay with the RAW contradicting itself, and you want to have even good undead be evil. Then there we go. Can't argue against that because you already acknowledge that logic doesn't matter. Undead are evil, because they are evil, even when they are not evil.
 

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