D&D 5E Is 5e "Easy Mode?"

Ilbranteloth · Apr 5, 2020

Garthanos said:
Fortunately so many adversaries are monsters that describing them as wounds that somehow magically do not impair at all kind of works ... Plus. A parried attack that slams your arm around till you ach is still hit point loss and a successful hit etc so it doesn't have to be slapstick it can be positively described defenses... One trick is allowing players to describe how there desperate last ditch defenses (hp) minimize the attack. The lucky guy describes it one way, the tough guy maybe like John Mcclane and the wizards might even describe cracks in his mage armor (some players will want you to describe their own so get imaginative too). A player character who has ummm regenerator flavor might have hit point loss that looks like wounds at first but which fades faster than normal (they just fatigue in the process of that fading)

Yes. This is exactly along the lines of how I have always viewed (most) hit points as a measure of skill/stamina. Where the blows wear you down, but you don't really take a major hit. In fact, our combat system is now designed around opportunity attacks and critical hits.

Having said that, we've never really used much in the way of descriptions in combat. It grew old very, very quickly, and combat itself is usually more of an obstacle than a focus. Having said that, players decide what happens in a critical fumble, and they choose the hit location on a critical hit, and we tend to think of things like Pirates of the Caribbean, Princess Bride, Game of Thrones, etc. when they decide what the consequences will be. And it can be much more descriptive in certain combats, especially duels.

Garthanos · Apr 5, 2020

Ilbranteloth said:
I was just curious if you had one in particular in mind.

I've always liked his description of hit points in the AD&D DMG:

"It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability ... that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. ... Because these reflect both the actual physical abilities of the character to withstand damage ... and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat ... the "sixth sense" ... sheer luck., etc.

In particular it's pointing out that hit points increase with level that's always resonated with me. I've always equated them with an increase in skill to better avoid a big hit, and stamina, a sort of built in fatigue system.

Skill was definitely a component but it might be luck or anything else snowballing too...
And his descriptions work fine for every edition of the game really yes I liked that one too.

Garthanos · Apr 5, 2020

Ilbranteloth said:
Having said that, players decide what happens in a critical fumble, and they choose the hit location on a critical hit, and we tend to think of things like Pirates of the Caribbean, Princess Bride, Game of Thrones, etc. when they decide what the consequences will be. And it can be much more descriptive in certain combats, especially duels.

Sounds cool yes. I have heard DMs using 5e lingering wounds say they let players have some veto when they have one aka like your letting people decide the critical fumble sort of.

Garthanos · Apr 5, 2020

Ilbranteloth said:
Having said that, we've never really used much in the way of descriptions in combat. It grew old very, very quickly, and combat itself is usually more of an obstacle than a focus.

The more you are into the combat and can get the scenes vividly into the players heads and the more you let them participate in making it vivid i think the better that gets.

tetrasodium · Apr 5, 2020

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Chaosmancer said:
I have no idea where the conversation even is at this point, but I wanted to pull this bit out to mention.

I like the change made in 5e, why? Because Alice isn't used to wineglasses being thrown in her face while casting. She's used to being shot with arrows and stabbed with spears.

A wineglass should be easy for her to cast through.

Going into system differences of this sort is relevant to the discussion

You are right that alice is not used to wine glasses in the face as opposed to getting stabbed with spears. In the middle of a battlefield, a wine glass would not be a significant thing your right... but in the context of alice sitting down to negotiate with a frenemy alice is also not used to trying to stand up from the negotiating table & immediately begin gesticulating VSM components to fireball the other side in negotiations nor is she on a battlefield. In 3.5 alice would be casting defensively (possibly with combat caster) on the battlefield where she might otherwise get stabbed with a spear, but the 5e change of an easier save & not needing to wait till the start of her next turn means that alice is always walking around with a loaded bazooka in a firing position even while having a discussion in a civilized environment that would preclude her from doing so & now needs to be treated as such with all situations looking like either a battlefield or an execution ground with this readied at all times... that's just a disaster for world building and storytelling that encourages the players to treat everything like murderhobos or require anyone they might need to negotiate/socially interact with on not quite friendly terms to be so absurdly powerful that they are capable of acting as a solo encounter.

This causes problems within 5e itself. For example. In 3.5 she could have gotten it off with something like quickened still silent spell at a much greater cost & in 5e subtle spell does skip somatic or verbal but now she can literally stand in front of the bbeg & not need any of that to hit him with fireball unless he has a readied action to hit her like a freight train or counterspells her. She only even needs subtle spell if she wants to avoid alerting people in the next room & the gm needs to fight the system or gm fiat it away.

tetrasodium · Apr 5, 2020

Garthanos said:
Fortunately so many adversaries are monsters that describing them as wounds that somehow magically do not impair at all kind of works ... Plus. A parried attack that slams your arm around till you ach is still hit point loss and a successful hit etc so it doesn't have to be slapstick it can be positively described defenses... One trick is allowing players to describe how their characters desperate last ditch defenses (hp) minimize the attack. The lucky guy describes it one way, the tough guy maybe like John Mcclane and the wizards might even describe cracks in his mage armor (some players will want you to describe their own so get imaginative too). A player character who has ummm regenerator flavor might have hit point loss that looks like wounds at first but which fades faster than normal (they just fatigue in the process of that fading).

Healing being restore that abstracted energies and fatigue works if you dont look too close like all game vagueness in my opinion.

I find asking players to describe their attack/effect often works out like standing on the breaks going down the highway as they stop & try to suddenly switch gears or think of ways to game the fluff. I'm sure i can work, but even if working it can be a jarring shift akin to splicing action scenes from ironman, deadpool, dirty hairy, aliens, & Logan (wolverine) movies together. Even if the flow isomehow manages to progress uninterrupted it results in something with jarring shifts compared to something like this

Garthanos · Apr 5, 2020

tetrasodium said:
I find asking players to describe their attack/effect often works out like standing on the breaks going down the highway as they stop & try to suddenly switch gears or think of ways to game the fluff. I'm sure i can work, but even if working it can be a jarring shift akin to splicing action scenes from ironman, deadpool, dirty hairy, aliens, & Logan (wolverine) movies together. Even if the flow isomehow manages to progress uninterrupted it results in something with jarring shifts compared to something like this

LOL it can depend on ones players my children for example roleplay and describe things better than me at times and part of the idea is to figure out which players are going to be into you describing it for them and which ones are more proactive and which just take a perfunctory descriptions fine.

I will have to read that later I like some of his work an awful lot ... but do not have problems with this but I also do not usually play with too large of groups... never have really ok a few conventions and i did not be impressed.

tetrasodium · Apr 5, 2020

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Garthanos said:
LOL it can depend on ones players my children for example roleplay and describe things better than me at times and part of the idea is to figure out which players are going to be into you describing it for them and which ones are more proactive and which just take a perfunctory descriptions fine.

I will have to read that later I like some of his work an awful lot ... but do not have problems with this but I also do not usually play with too large of groups... never have really ok a few conventions and i did not be impressed.

I do(did but

) 1-2 personal games/week with a few players and at times have run 1-2 AL games/week at a flgs. I'm a lot more digital with excel & a tvbox running arkenforge, but that style of narration he describes is very effective for keeping things flowing smoothly with everyone paying attention & lets you really go over the top with describing the action

Garthanos · Apr 5, 2020

Yardiff said:
Sounds very railroady to me.

Do the time intense stuff too often i think it can feel heavy handed but I find players who have motivations in story for what happening are cool with quite a bit of it.

Garthanos · Apr 5, 2020

Garthanos said:
Healing being restore that abstracted energies and fatigue works if you dont look too close like all game vagueness in my opinion.

Oh and in 4e if you do use afflictions for those lingering style injuries there is a fairly costly ritual for removing them and another for delaying them and so on. I wish afflictions had got more TLC