D&D General A paladin just joined the group. I'm a necromancer.

Flamestrike said:

Modrons, as constructs cant be affected by healing magic (which doesnt affect contructs or undead).

Warforged WHICH ARE NOT CONSTRUCTS, are affected by healing magic, expressly are called out as 'living' by 3.5 and 4E DnD, and are heavily implied (including in 5E Unearthed Arcana) to have souls:

Do warforged have souls?

My initial point was that Constructs and Undead are not alive. As Warforged ARE NOT CONSTRUCTS, you're arguing a strawman trying to argue that they are (or are not) alive. They're Humanoids; they're not Constructs or Undead.

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So if Warforged aren't constructs (I always thought they were, having never looked into Eberron at all closely), what are they?

Can they biologically reproduce? If no, that clobbers much hope of calling them "life forms".

Do they get other construct-related benefits e.g. poison immunity? If yes, then that they can be affected by healing magic sounds like a huge unwarranted benefit for them.

Do they fall to pieces or disassemble when they die? Can they be revived from death? The presence of a soul implies yes to the second question, but if they're not biological then isn't the first answer also yes?

Greenfield said:

How exactly does one "shoot back" at someone who hasn't shot at you?

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Pre-emptively.

Chaosmancer said:

Sigh, it will be ignored, but, yet again, the spell does not tell us that the undead you create will kill people when you lose control.

Conjure Elemental says that. It specifically says that an uncontrolled elemental attacks anything near it and tries to kill them.

Animate Dead does not say that. The only place it says that is in the monster lore. Monster lore which does not match up to the spell. You are assuming that the undead attacks, but we cannot prove it. And if they do not, then why is the creation of the undead evil?

Because it uses evil spirits? The spell doesn't say that it uses evil spirits.

Because it uses dark magic? Spell doesn't say it uses dark magic.

We are left with no reason for it to be evil.

But, I've argued this point dozens of times and everyone just ignores it and says "RAW they are Evil".

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You're conflating two different things here.

1. The undead are evil, as per the MM. Therefore, creating them and thus bringing evil into the world is an evil act. End of story. (I simply can't grasp how anyone can dispute this)

BUT

2. Even though the undead are evil, you're quite right in saying it's not clear what happens after the 24-hour control period - which IMO is a serious oversight in the spell write-up. Maybe the undead do just sit there unless attacked, but even then they'd pull as Evil were anyone to cast Detect Evil or similar in their presence.

Chaosmancer said:

Why is a computer not alive?

We are fairly close (a few decades probably) from developing the first AI's. I've read a lot of sci-fi that deals with AI's and it has led me to make a realization. Once we get the capability to transfer a human mind into a machine body, then what is the difference between an AI and a brain in a computer?

And, as some of those stories showed in vivid detail, if a brain in a box isn't considered "alive" then it has no rights. You can't kill it. You can't torture it. You can't imprison it.

And this leads to horror on a grand scale.

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No, by that point we've long since entered the realm of horror on a grand scale, having crossed the border the moment we created machines that can a) think for themselves and b) act on those thoughts beyond the parameters of their programming.

And, though you can't kill, torture, or imprison a brain in a box you can in theory isolate and delete it...unless we're as a species so unbelievably stupid as to allow them the means to self-replicate, in which case we deserve whatever horrors we unleash.

Lanefan said:

2. Even though the undead are evil, you're quite right in saying it's not clear what happens after the 24-hour control period - which IMO is a serious oversight in the spell write-up. Maybe the undead do just sit there unless attacked, but even then they'd pull as Evil were anyone to cast Detect Evil or similar in their presence.

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It's pretty clear what happens. The spell says that they only sit there doing nothing when not commanded, and they can only be commanded during the 24 hour period where you have control. Therefore, they do not just sit there doing nothing when the 24 period is up. The Zombie write-up also has this to say...

"The magic animating a zombie imbues it with evil, so left without purpose, it attacks any living creature it encounters."

That further cements that they only sit and do nothing while controlled and left without a command.

Edit: The zombie entry says that they don't move around if they are not working on a command, so they don't wander, but they do kill anything thing come across.

Chaosmancer said:

But, if you don't care about RAW that disagrees with your position... what is the point in even arguing? You just ignore evidence that doesn't agree with you.

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Facepalm.

Considering what the PHB clearly states about animating dead with necromancy (not a good act, only evil peeps do so frequently) and the MM telling you unambiguously that Skeltons and Zombies are animated with 'dark and sinister magic' to create evil murderous monsters, that's perhaps the most hilarious thing you've said all thread.

Anyway I'm done debating with you. You're self evidently wrong according to the PHB and the MM. Animating rhe dead with necromancy (in 5E) is not a good act, and only evil creatures do do frequently.

See ya.

Lanefan said:

So if Warforged aren't constructs (I always thought they were, having never looked into Eberron at all closely), what are they?

Can they biologically reproduce? If no, that clobbers much hope of calling them "life forms".

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They're not constructs. They're humanoids. In 3.5 and 4E they expressly had the 'living' subtype. In those editions they could expressly be affected by Raise dead, a spell that uses magic to unite a soul with a body.

Can they be revived from death? The presence of a soul implies yes to the second question, but if they're not biological then isn't the first answer also yes?

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Yes, House Cannith ran from the argument that as Raise Dead works on them (and it expressly requires a Soul to function, as the spell reunites a Soul with a Body) they must have souls. Raised Warforged themselves have no recollection of any afterlife (unlike other humanoids, who remember the afterlife). Travelers to the outer plane of Eberron where Souls go when a mortal dies, report it contains no Warforged souls (so if they have Souls, they go somewhere else).

They also cant be turned into undead in 3.5 and 4E, and likely 5E as well.

The question as to whether they have souls is left ambiguous in the lore. There is evidence for and against them having souls, and there is no express answer to the question in the rules 'behind the curtain' for players.

Id certainly land on the side of them possessing souls, and they're certainly 'alive' for the purposes of this discussion (in that the game expressly gave them the living subtype in earlier editions, and in this edition they are not constructs, they're humanoids).

My point was only that you cant kill a Construct or an Undead. As Warforged are neither (they're humanoids, like Orcs, Elves, Humans and Gith) they dont fit in that definition.

Helldritch said:

No need for that. Homebrew in this context means only: "Outside of the core game". The core game is by definition: " The PHB, the DMG and the MM". Anything else, even if official material, is homebrew. Be it Wildemount, Eberron, Ravenloft, Darksun, Forgotten Realm, Planescape, Spelljammer, Mystara, Birthright and even my dear loved Greyhawk. All these can be considered homebrew. While a the core game assumes one thing, a setting can freely assume another.

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Odd. I'd always figured that "Homebrew" was something else. Like a setting or rule tht they came up with at home.

To me non-core books are, well, non-core, but still rules.

But let's take this opportunity to see if we can douse a few flames: Was th setting the original question applied to Ebberon?

If the answer is yes then Necromancy isn't inherently Evil.

If the answer is No, then it is. And that's right out of the rules.


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Someone asked why a computer isn't alive. It doesn't grow or adapt, it doesn't consume food and it doesn't reproduce. It only "responds to stimuli" the way a bell responds to being struck, or the way a wheel responds to being spun: It responds as designed and built to do. No independence. No matter how long or complicated the row of dominoes is, no matter how intricate the arrangement, it still isn't alive, even when it "responds to stimuli". It responds as it was designed to, in this case, it falls over when pushed.

Greenfield said:

Odd. I'd always figured that "Homebrew" was something else. Like a setting or rule tht they came up with at home.

To me non-core books are, well, non-core, but still rules.

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I reckon any stance that declares the likes of XGtE and friends "homebrew" has redefined the term to the point of uselessness.

Catulle said:

I reckon any stance that declares the likes of XGtE and friends "homebrew" has redefined the term to the point of uselessness.

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Who here has said that?