D&D General For the Love of Greyhawk: Why People Still Fight to Preserve Greyhawk

Helldritch said:

Humans forms the vast majority of the world's population and demi-humans are on the brink of extinction because of man's folly and their own too.

Click to expand...

Okay, now this is another hook I find really interesting. And seemingly a compelling reason for people to be interested in playing non-humans in the setting.

Iconic villains of Greyhawk

1 Iuz - Demigod son of the Demonlord Grazzt, he conquered his own country, manipulated the viking barbarian nations to instigate the Greyhawk Wars leading to his nation conquering more and expanding to an empire of fiend dominated evil.
2 Scarlet Brotherhood - ethnic Suel supremacist monks and assassins who generally work from behind the scenes.
3 Great Kingdom - Decadent Medieval Kingdom empire that fell to madness and fiend worship as its empire fragmented, until in the From the Ashes era the Overking killed all his governors and turned them into Undead animuses at which point the last of the Kingdom splintered into horrific evil city states.

Compare to Forgotten Realms
1 Red Wizards of Thay - Conanesque Stygian sorcerer magocracy.
2 Zhentarim - Society of power grabbers without moral scruples.
3 Cult of the Dragon - Wizard cult dedicated to making undead dragons.

Chaosmancer said:

If without the proper context of other fantasy stories, I can't even be told what makes Greyhawk compelling... is it really compelling?

Click to expand...

I mean, yes? It could be that it is.

You seem to be working on a false idea that because something is compelling to some people (and nothing is compelling to everyone, least of all RPG settings), it's universally appealing or easy to describe. This seems like a bizarre principle for an RPG player to work on, given RPGs themselves are neither universally appealing, nor easy to describe in a way that makes sense and makes them sound appealing.

Chaosmancer said:

If I wanted to sell you on Hero and Demon Queen, a show I rather enjoy, I would likely go with something along the lines of "It takes the classic tale of the hero defeating the great evil, and spins it into a tale of the bonds between people, and how society and economic progress can hold back the tides of war and hate, while simulataneously exploring what a strong warrior does, when there is no war to fight. There are some anime tropes, but also powerful emotional character developments."

Click to expand...

First off, this isn't a valid comparison, because it's far easier to explain a story than it is to explain an RPG setting, unless the setting has really massive and obvious hooks. I mean, if I tried to describe the Forgotten Realms or Planescape - I mean particularly Planescape - they're probably going to be either incomprehensible, or sound totally rubbish. The problem Greyhawk has is that in the vaguest terms, it's just "the AD&D setting" - a lot about AD&D/D&D just derives from elements of it - but a lot of that is stuff that's been lost, minimized, or shoved aside by more modern tropes. The blasted very points-of-light world (which only 4E even sort of did), the mercenary nature of a lot of the adventurers there, the focus more on neutrality and survival than good against evil and so on.

Second off, you're proving my point re: compelling to one person not meaning easy to describe, because that would definitely not sell me on it, and it sounds a bit like sort of stuff anime fans generically overhype about anime. Yet I suspect because you're even discussing it, it actually is pretty good! (Though I do see maid outfits in one picture of it which makes me narrow my eyes because to me they're an "Anime Red Flag". I've had enough of anime that makes to like somewhere between episode 2 and 6 before it's like "SURPRISE! I'M FOR PERVS!!!" - not suggesting this but maid outfits hmmmm)

And you seem to think someone needs to have read a lot of Sword and Sorcery to like Greyhawk? Nah. That's a misunderstanding. You need to know what Sword and Sorcery is to have Greyhawk properly described to you in like, less than 2000 well-crafted words. This is how culture works, mate. People share stories and ideas and use them as shorthand, as shared understand. You seem to be rejecting culture. I mean, good luck if you get stuck on a planet with a Tamarian! People have tried, bravely, to describe it, but without also having that hard-to-define S&S vibe, I don't think you're going to get the full picture.

Ruin Explorer said:

You seem to be working on a false idea that because something is compelling to some people (and nothing is compelling to everyone, least of all RPG settings), it's universally appealing or easy to describe. This seems like a bizarre principle for an RPG player to work on, given RPGs themselves are neither universally appealing, nor easy to describe in a way that makes sense and makes them sound appealing.

Click to expand...

I don't think that saying "Whats the elevator pitch for your campaign setting?" is an unreasonable request.

Forgotten Realms: Its the setting all the video games you played and Drizzt novels uses.
Ravenloft: Gothic horror world that you are trapped in.
Dark Sun: Bronze age desert world where magic destroys the environment.
Ravnica: A planet sized city and its warring factions.
Theros: Puts you in the boots of the classic Greek mythic world.
Wildemount: Its the setting from Critical Role (I don't actually know anything about it to give it a pitch line.)
Eberron: A world where magic is industrialized coming off a major war.

I just made a pitch for 7 different settings in a couple minutes.

Ruin Explorer said:

First off, this isn't a valid comparison, because it's far easier to explain a story than it is to explain an RPG setting,

Click to expand...

I mean, as someone who knows what Swords and Sorcery is, I'm gonna counter argument this pretty hard by providing elevator pitches for more 2E stuff

Forgotten Realms: Kitchen-sink where most of the D&D video games take place, full of famous characters like Dritz and all that
Birthright: Kingdom building, the setting.
Ravenloft: Gothic horror, but D&D
Birthright: You wanna do kingdom building? Welcome to kingdom building land
Mystera: The other kitchen sink setting, except its gone full on pulp, has developed along with D&D and has some oddities (Flying gnomish skycity) and has a hollow world inside it.
Eberron: Fantasy post WW1. Industrialised magic in a shades of grey world where the scars of the last war are keenly felt and its possible another war may be on its way
Dark Sun: The world is dying, ruled over by tyrant kings wielding the magic that drains the world of its life. The best weapon you can find is your former party member's femur after some horrible monster tore him apart
Spelljammer: Fly boats through space, hire hippo mercenaries who love gunpowder and explosions, and fight against evil space elves who've bio-engineered Guyvers for themselves
Planescape: Travel the planes, barge into the god's houses, and behold the city at the center of everything. The setting for the best D&D video game, Planescape: Torment.
Council of Wyrms: You wanna play as a dragon? Here you go (also I guess it has alternate rules for other stuff but, you came here for the dragon)

What is Greyhawk's elevator pitch? What's just, a quick one or two sentence 'This is why you should play this setting' thing to come up with?

Mecheon said:

What is Greyhawk's elevator pitch? What's just, a quick one or two sentence 'This is why you should play this setting' thing to come up with?

Click to expand...

That's a good question that someone really should have asked earlier.

Greyhawk: A world where gods walk the earth, demi-humans are on the brink of extinction because of men's folly and where heroes can and will make a difference for the good or the bad. Can our heroes bring goodness in the world or will they help to plunge it further into darkness?

Mecheon said:

Forgotten Realms: Kitchen-sink where most of the D&D video games take place, full of famous characters like Dritz and all that

Click to expand...

[obtuseness on]So, it's a video game setting like WoW?[/obtuseness off]

Mecheon said:

What is Greyhawk's elevator pitch? What's just, a quick one or two sentence 'This is why you should play this setting' thing to come up with?

Click to expand...

If the FR elevator pitch is valid, let's go with the style like so...

Greyhawk is the first major TSR D&D setting, packed with the classic adventures like White Plume Mountain and Against the Giants that D&D players rave about. And it's full of the famous characters who defined most of the named spells like Mordenkainen, Bigby, and Rary. If it's famous in D&D, it probably appeared here first.

Greyhawk can be made to appeal to the modern gamer by describing it right. Firstly with the sheer number of countries, cultures races, play up the diversity of characters available to play, modern gamers love diversity. Next Modern players love story and adventure over wow this is my 3rd death in the campaign. So instead play up the angle that as most NPC's are low level that means as you gain levels your story matters more, you have more effect and events turn as you make decisions and take sides. Greyhawk a world of great diversity and where your story matters where the world watches with baited breath for your next move.

Ralif Redhammer said:

With D&D, making a new character takes time. Even assuming you speed through and don't play a spellcaster, you're still looking at a minimum 5-10 minutes. And that says nothing of the character concept.

Click to expand...

I think it's fairly easy to come up with a new system for that. A grim and gritty Greyhawk game could have rules about generating a cadre of ready to play characters and how to integrate them seamlessly into the campaign. It could also give tips on how to quickly retool old characters into new ones without them feeling too similar. This could be what would set a 5e Greyhawk setting apart, like the Piety system in Theros or the Patron system in Eberron.