D&D 5E Proposed Houserule: Warlock Spell Slots

Bacon Bits · Dec 18, 2020

tetrasodium said:
The fact that eb has multiple attacks rather than working like a normal cantrip that just adds dice is the big problem because everything including +n wands get multiplied & if a gm introduces anything that changes how cantrips work eldritch blast needs a special carve out because it's a force damage fighter extra attack heavy crossbow+crossbow expert that scales with character rather than class level

Nah. The sole problem is on-hit effects affecting more than one target. Make damage and on-hit effect only affect the first beam and it's fine no matter how many attacks there are.

Multiple attacks don't really matter and attack bonuses don't really matter because the damage is split up. Sure, with multiple attacks you're more likely to hit once, but you're also more likely to do miss at least once so you're much less likely to deal full damage. Since wands of the war mage, rods of the pact keeper, staff of power, and staff of the magi only affect attack rolls and not spell damage rolls, I don't really consider them a problem with EB. (Not like the last two are a problem due to their ability to boost cantrips.)

A cantrip at level 11 is supposed to do 3 dice worth of damage. It doesn't matter that much spreading it out. Having +12 to do 3d10+5 is not much different in terms of damage output than 1 attack at +12 dealing 1d10+5 and 2 attacks at +12 dealing 1d10. Sure, you can invent contrived situations like attacking a mass of mooks with 5 hp, but how often is that a problem at the levels where you really have a lot of beams? And how often is cloud of daggers or acid splash better in those situations anyways? And how often is the fire damage type better or chill touch rider better or higher damage of toll the dead or debuff from mind sliver better, etc.?

It's not EB that's abusive. It's this insistence that EB invocations trigger on every beam hit. Unfortunately, since the class is otherwise pretty hamstrung as far as spellcasting, giving the class a cantrip that outclasses everything else was what the designers chose to do.

dmhelp · Dec 18, 2020

What about:
Each Mystic Arcanum can also be used (instead of casting the designated spell) to upcast a known Warlock spell, Patron expanded spell list spell, or a lower level Mystic Arcanum once per long rest.

That would give them a lot more flexibility at high level and lead to less multiclassing out of Warlock I would think. Essentially their 6+ spells are powered by long rest spell slots.

aurvay · Dec 18, 2020

seergun said:
Idea I've had: number of warlock spell slots=proficiency bonus, regain all back on SR once per LR.

Might be too good, never actually tried this.

This is actually how I do it for my ongoing 5-year-old campaign. Our warlock hit level 20 already and things were quite balanced the whole time.

tetrasodium · Dec 18, 2020

Bacon Bits said:
Nah. The sole problem is on-hit effects affecting more than one target. Make damage and on-hit effect only affect the first beam and it's fine no matter how many attacks there are.

Multiple attacks don't really matter and attack bonuses don't really matter because the damage is split up. Sure, with multiple attacks you're more likely to hit once, but you're also more likely to do miss at least once so you're much less likely to deal full damage. Since wands of the war mage, rods of the pact keeper, staff of power, and staff of the magi only affect attack rolls and not spell damage rolls, I don't really consider them a problem with EB. (Not like the last two are a problem due to their ability to boost cantrips.)

A cantrip at level 11 is supposed to do 3 dice worth of damage. It doesn't matter that much spreading it out. Having +12 to do 3d10+5 is not much different in terms of damage output than 1 attack at +12 dealing 1d10+5 and 2 attacks at +12 dealing 1d10. Sure, you can invent contrived situations like attacking a mass of mooks with 5 hp, but how often is that a problem at the levels where you really have a lot of beams? And how often is cloud of daggers or acid splash better in those situations anyways? And how often is the fire damage type better or chill touch rider better or higher damage of toll the dead or debuff from mind sliver better, etc.?

It's not EB that's abusive. It's this insistence that EB invocations trigger on every beam hit. Unfortunately, since the class is otherwise pretty hamstrung as far as spellcasting, giving the class a cantrip that outclasses everything else was what the designers chose to do.

No it's still pretty problematic even like that because it's a "cantrip" not a "class feature", warlock needs to decide if the primary reason for the class to exist is to be whatever a warlock is or to provide sorcerers with a 2 level dip for agonizing eldritch blast & choice of repelling or devils sight & change accordingly. If it's the first then look at the fighter extra attack & give them the ability to cast multiple first level cantrips or something scaling at the same levels, something like the 3.5 eldritch blast, or who knows. If it's the second then it's far too powerful given the multiplicative benefits that go with combining flexible casting & pact magic short rest recovery

Xeviat · Dec 18, 2020

If you wanted to give the warlock spell slots faster, I'd suggest slowing their spell level growth. 3 3rd level spells per short rest at 5th level would be too much.

doctorbadwolf · Dec 19, 2020

tetrasodium said:
The fact that eb has multiple attacks rather than working like a normal cantrip that just adds dice is the big problem because everything including +n wands get multiplied & if a gm introduces anything that changes how cantrips work eldritch blast needs a special carve out because it's a force damage fighter extra attack heavy crossbow+crossbow expert that scales with character rather than class level

And yet, a blaster warlock isn't more powerful than a fighter of the same level.

tetrasodium · Dec 19, 2020

doctorbadwolf said:
And yet, a blaster warlock isn't more powerful than a fighter of the same level.n

Which has little to do with the fact that the difference between a 2 warlock N sorcerer & N+2warlock because something that should be a class feature is misclassified as a cantrip.
when they made the 5e warlock they took this

and simplified it into a combination best of everything cantrip fighter extra attack.

doctorbadwolf · Dec 19, 2020

tetrasodium said:
Which has little to do with the fact that the difference between a 2 warlock N sorcerer & N+2warlock because something that should be a class feature is misclassified as a cantrip.
when they made the 5e warlock they took this

View attachment 130289
View attachment 130290
View attachment 130291

and simplified it into a combination best of everything cantrip fighter extra attack.

Yes, I loved the 3.5 Warlock, too.

Anyway, it's a strong cantrip, but you're exaggerating the case, IMO. Eldritch Blast is fine, as is.

tetrasodium · Dec 19, 2020

doctorbadwolf said:
Yes, I loved the 3.5 Warlock, too.

Anyway, it's a strong cantrip, but you're exaggerating the case, IMO. Eldritch Blast is fine, as is.

EB is fine if you let 6-8 encounters and 2 short rests/day dictate that every aspect of your campaign is arranged to follow that schedule above all else but that's hardly a reasonable demand on the gm

doctorbadwolf · Dec 19, 2020

tetrasodium said:
EB is fine if you let 6-8 encounters and 2 short rests/day dictate that every aspect of your campaign is arranged to follow that schedule above all else but that's hardly a reasonable demand on the gm

No, it’s fine. Full stop.

Look I’ve run the game for plenty of warlocks, and we don’t do 6-8 encounters. Ever. EB works fine.

D&D 5E Proposed Houserule: Warlock Spell Slots

Bacon Bits

Legend

dmhelp

Explorer

aurvay

Explorer

tetrasodium

Legend

Xeviat

Dungeon Mistress, she/her

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

tetrasodium

Legend

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

tetrasodium

Legend

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle

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