Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
And since attribute checks have none of that and attributes do not advance worth naughty word in 5e... tadah
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D&D 4E Am I crazy? I've just gotten a hankering to play 4e again...
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
And swarms are what I would use for well swarms and the game has some cool ones...
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
On the question of what level things get complicated at... Well, that depends on your definition of complicated. If you are measuring by 1e AD&D then "level 1" is the answer... There really are a lot of options and factors and whatnot in 4e. I think the "level 1 fighters have 11 options" is probably not exaggerating... OTOH mostly you use a few of them, and there are some that come up fairly seldom.
Still, it is a fairly complicated game... Paragons have a lot of moving parts, you won't just master a level 11 PC in 5 minutes. A paragon party is generally a pretty "well oiled machine" too....
Still, it is a fairly complicated game... Paragons have a lot of moving parts, you won't just master a level 11 PC in 5 minutes. A paragon party is generally a pretty "well oiled machine" too....
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
I have heard that one mentioned more than a few times.
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
You can speed it up, but it requires buy-in from everyone--DM included. Using the Monster Manual 3 stats (which are lower-HP, lower-defense, higher-damage), relying on minions, keeping limits on conditions that excessively complicate matters, etc. On the player side, having prewritten power cards, ALWAYS paying attention even on other players' turns, and tracking turn order and conditional effects as simply and accurately as possible. (A whiteboard is actually very helpful here, along with either colored bands, colored tokens, or magnetic tokens to stick to the white board.)
Been thinking about how to do 4e-ified simple combats too--probably riffing off the Skill Challenge rules--but I haven't done any concrete work yet. If that's of interest, I'll look into it. And on the subject of Skill Challenges, I have some significant advice that...doesn't technically contradict the SC rules, but rather expands beyond them to make them much more enjoyable than if played precisely by-the-book (which can make them feel REALLY stilted and mechanistic.)
Well, some amount of "options" and "builds" is unavoidable because even the books use the term "build," and part of the tactical combat resides in which choices you make at the (for lack of a better term) "strategic" level. If you want to keep that "strategic" level while cutting down on the chaff, I honestly do suggest the various class guide threads you can find here on ENWorld. Not to be super-duper optimized, but because they cut through ALL the crappy chaff BS and get to the good stuff.
If you dislike it so much that you'd really rather avoid ALL of it, the "Essentials-style" classes are a halfway decent way to cut down on options, but even there there's still going to be feats and some building of a character (e.g. there are two Cavalier Virtues to choose from). Not all classes got an Essentials-style writeup though, e.g. there is only the "original" Warlord, an emblematic class.
Well, MM3 stats generally work pretty well for this, but if you want to take it further, this might work. The only problem will be that that's what crits already do (plus some rolled extra dice), so you'll want to make a new rule for crits. Double max damage could work, but it will make PCs hit really REALLY hard. The other side of this is that fistful-of-small-dice attacks, or simply fistful-of-dice generally, will be a lot more powerful. However, this will definitely speed up combat, so it's worth considering.
I don't know if they'll really eliminate "power bloat" per se. Several of them end up with a similar number of total powers--it's only really classes like Knight and Slayer that truly excise a lot of stuff. They just don't give you the choice of what power you take at the strategic level (or a choice between 2 options)--the tactical level remains choice-heavy, IIRC. It sort of depends on what you mean by "power bloat"; is it the pool of options players can choose from when they level up, or the pool of options they can choose while actually in-combat?
I'd say probably mid-Paragon, so level 14-16 is where things might get too much for your tastes, but it's hard to say for sure. That's when you've hit your maximum total of regular powers and start replacing lower-level ones, rather than simply adding more. (Utility powers are the only non-At-Will powers you never replace; your pool of those continues to grow, albeit slowly.)
First Age
Explorer
Is there somewhere that gives the workings for MM3 such that they can be applied to 1 & 2? Are they that diffierent?
EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
There is! Behold, Monster Manual 3 on a business card.
They are meaningfully different, but it's not like it's a total ground-up rewrite. Accuracy penalties and bonuses were largely eliminated, damage was increased around 30% to 40%, hit points were often decreased (sometimes significantly), and in general effects were focused so they'd happen regardless of whether the monster succeeds rather than solely if it does (so that it didn't matter if any given monster only lasted 2 rounds, it'd still get SOME effect off and shift the flow of battle.)
mechanical conversion of a 4e class to a 5e class.
7 HP/level is d12 hD
6 HP/level is d10 HD
5 HP/level is d8 HD
4 HP/level is d6 HD
Pretty easy.
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Saves map as follows:
+2 Reflex = proficient in int and dex
+2 Fortitude = proficient in strength and con
+2 Will = proficient in wisdom and charisma
+1 All = 1/2 proficiency bonus to all saves
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To deal with multiclasses, we'll split powers known from power uses. And simplify.
When you use an Encounter power, the slot refreshes at the end of the next short rest. When you use a Daily power, it refreshes at the end of the next long rest. (this applies to both utility and attack powers).
The 5e power level is based on the 4e power level:
1-2: 1
3-6: 2
7-9: 3
10-12: 4
13-16: 5
17-19: 6
20-22: 7
23-26: 8
27-30: 9
You gain power slots using the 'full caster' spell advancement system in 5e.
Hmm. That might result in too many slots. But I don't think 3 kinds of slots works either.
I could drop it to 1/2 or 2/3 caster progression and rework the power->slot level chart. As a level 29 daily attack power does not match a 5e 9th level spell, this might be more appropriate.
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Now to map over class progression. I figure we use 5e asi, feats, gear and combat mechanics along side 4e powers. 4e powers require an action to use, not an attac; so we can give out extra attack at 5 if we want.
TWF is built-in and twin strike becomes obsolete at 5 that way, but we can patch that.
Alternatively, we can let 4e ported characters use 1 weapon attack power during an attack action. And grant most of them extra attack at level 5.
Ah, what if the implement classes got full slot progression, while weapon classes got half. And we mapped powers to slots based on non caster. And let casters "upcast" for an extra die per slot.
That could compensate for the extra attack on "weapon" classes.
7 HP/level is d12 hD
6 HP/level is d10 HD
5 HP/level is d8 HD
4 HP/level is d6 HD
Pretty easy.
---
Saves map as follows:
+2 Reflex = proficient in int and dex
+2 Fortitude = proficient in strength and con
+2 Will = proficient in wisdom and charisma
+1 All = 1/2 proficiency bonus to all saves
---
To deal with multiclasses, we'll split powers known from power uses. And simplify.
When you use an Encounter power, the slot refreshes at the end of the next short rest. When you use a Daily power, it refreshes at the end of the next long rest. (this applies to both utility and attack powers).
The 5e power level is based on the 4e power level:
1-2: 1
3-6: 2
7-9: 3
10-12: 4
13-16: 5
17-19: 6
20-22: 7
23-26: 8
27-30: 9
You gain power slots using the 'full caster' spell advancement system in 5e.
Hmm. That might result in too many slots. But I don't think 3 kinds of slots works either.
I could drop it to 1/2 or 2/3 caster progression and rework the power->slot level chart. As a level 29 daily attack power does not match a 5e 9th level spell, this might be more appropriate.
---
Now to map over class progression. I figure we use 5e asi, feats, gear and combat mechanics along side 4e powers. 4e powers require an action to use, not an attac; so we can give out extra attack at 5 if we want.
TWF is built-in and twin strike becomes obsolete at 5 that way, but we can patch that.
Alternatively, we can let 4e ported characters use 1 weapon attack power during an attack action. And grant most of them extra attack at level 5.
Ah, what if the implement classes got full slot progression, while weapon classes got half. And we mapped powers to slots based on non caster. And let casters "upcast" for an extra die per slot.
That could compensate for the extra attack on "weapon" classes.
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EzekielRaiden
Follower of the Way
Doing this will kill any interest the vast majority of 4e players might have in the game. Gear I could give up, but feats and combat mechanics? Hell no. Just stapling 4e powers to 5e's system will never have half the tactical depth of 4e, it will just be bad at being either the loosey-goosey "whatever, DM will fix it" style of 5e OR the rigorous "we prepared for as many ranges of choices as we could" of 4e.
...no. Absolutely not. Why would you completely upend the system balance like this? This isn't even remotely like 4e anymore. It's 5e with some new weird maneuver rules and a different spell list. You will have completely sold the ACTUAL comparable power of casters and non-casters for a BLATANT power increase to casters alone. Unless you are proposing the even worse alternative that a non-caster uses attack powers a number of times equal to their Extra Attack amount, in which case Fighters are now the most stupidly overpowered class in the game, bar none.
I'm not saying it's not possible to capture some of 4e's spirit in 5e. But this isn't even Frankenstein's monster. This is a badly-made Fullmetal Alchemist chimera.
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Feats mostly contribute to the "character building" portion of the game, moreso than the tactical complexity of play.
No, I'm not trying to play 4e. I'm trying to bring 4e's tactical components and classes into 5e.
The implement casters get no higher level abilities than the weapon users, just higher level slots.
Meanwhile, adding an extra attack to every power is a huge upgrade. The best level 7 powers damage in 4e let you do 3 attacks with a restrcted set of weapons; now they do 4.
The implement casters get more slots (but not as many more as you might think), and some higher level slots to super charge a power or two. That super charging is going to almost always be significantly less than what the weapon user gets from their free extra attack.
Possibly this won't hash out, but it isn't really clear that more slots wins out.
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One thought I've had is that make all of the slots be encounter refresh. Daily powers would be "major", and each major power can only be used once/short rest (but also consumes a slot).
That caps your per-encounter burst (to your slots), and gets rid of the annoying "when does this slot refresh" mechanic.
But these characters might have too many per-encounter slots if they use a daily 5e power chart for their slots. Meh.
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I think that martial "weapon" classes should get extra attack (like other 4e classes do), and can use one "power" (like a bladesinger can use a cantrip). Figuring out how to boost the non-weapon classes the right amount is tricky.
"upcasting" and more slots was one attempt. (Note that upcasting sort of sucks, in both baseline 5e and in this system, unless you find a way to make a lot of taps with your spell for few actions.)
