D&D General me finally making the big monk discussion thread

Minigiant said:

The issue is the baseline for 3-4 attacks and bonus action dodge is already too close the edge that you cannot make many meaningful variants to it.

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No, it isn’t. An action just needs to not invalidate the base class, while not being worse than just making 1-3 attacks. That isn’t hard. At all.

Minigiant said:

How can you say "you could make subclasses of it" if you don't know what it is?

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I noted one name I didn’t recognize.

Minigiant said:

That's like saying you can make a wizard subclass of the fighter.

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No, it isn’t.

Minigiant said:

You can't make a boxing or pro wrestling or ki blaster from the monk chassis as they use different routines, foci, and assumptions. You could say your monk is like a heavyweight boxer but nothing on your sheet nor how you play would match the image. To do that you'd have to rewire or override half the monks features. And at that point, you aren't even using parts of the monk and have created a new class.

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Laughable nonsense. A boxer should probably be a fighter, and an unarmed FS Battlemaster does a great job. If you need some sort of mystic boxer...just make a beefy monk. It’s not hard.

A ki blaster is already there. Change the sun soul’s damage type. Done.

Pro Wrestler is also just...open hand monk. Or kensei with chair as their kensei weapon.

Mind of tempest said:

subclasses based only on having a different fighting style are dull I have suggested a better martial arts and subclass system.

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Where did i suggest any such thing?

doctorbadwolf said:

Laughable nonsense. A boxer should probably be a fighter, and an unarmed FS Battlemaster does a great job. If you need some sort of mystic boxer...just make a beefy monk. It’s not hard.

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Ehhhhhhhh... a Boxer is not great with a fighter and the monk is way, way closer conceptually.

doctorbadwolf said:

A ki blaster is already there. Change the sun soul’s damage type. Done.

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True, but also the Sun Soul is like dull as hell. Well, to me at least. YMMV.

doctorbadwolf said:

Pro Wrestler is also just...open hand monk. Or kensei with chair as their kensei weapon.

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Pro Wrestlers and grapplers are very difficult to build in general in 5E because grappling is just difficult to get to do anything other than MMA ground and pound. The Open Hand monk doesn't really have much there, and while I've seen weird ways of trying to do stuff like suplexes, at the end of the day there's just no way of doing it with the rules as they are right now. Conceptually there's a lot of interesting mechanical potential in such a build, but I'm not sure Wizards is particularly interested in building something like it.

Look, the Monk could use a few optional swapout features, but this idea that the class is restricted by its base features is just silly.

A hadoken just has to have damage output that makes it not better than running up and spending the same ki on attacks, and a range that makes it a meaningful expansion of what the monk can do.

I had a Sun Soul monk that changed their damage type to force, and when the radiant fireball class feature came online...treated it as a fully powered up hadoken. We also tweaked the basic feature to allow the same damage on one hit as an action+bonus, which had upsides and downsides.

Another thing we played with was a damage-oriented Stunning Strike replacement where you simply get 2d6 force damage for 1ki, and 1d6 per additional ki, with a max ki per hit equal to your prof bonus.

As for strength monks, I’m not very concerned about most of the concepts people want to push into that category being monks, but I’ll play ball.

Boxer (again, give me a story for this that is esoteric or mystic, and thus belongs in the monk at all) is a subclass that benefits from strength, and can spend ki to simply make very powerful single attacks.
I mean, really it’s an open hand monk with reflavoring, but whatever.

Also, I’d rather see the fighter get an optional variant feature of Unarmored defense: Int, you can use shields with this, but if you don’t you get +5ft speed. Serves both the boxer, and the swashbuckling weapons master

doctorbadwolf said:

Boxer (again, give me a story for this that is esoteric or mystic, and thus belongs in the monk at all) is a subclass that benefits from strength, and can spend ki to simply make very powerful single attacks.
I mean, really it’s an open hand monk with reflavoring, but whatever.

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That the monk has to have "esoteric or mystic" stuff is just... insanely limiting. Why? Like, I ran a bareknuckle boxer as a monk: he was a Dwarf Open Hand monk. Patient Step was a Dempsey Roll, Flurry of Blows was a fast flurry of punches, and the various kinds of effects he could inflict were from the power of his punches. His recovery thing was just a second wind.

Like, I put in things that I thought would flavor it better, but I think the concept works way better than fighter: why would a boxer know how to use any weapon? Why would they be able to wear any armor? Also, having a boxer have to wear armor feels wrong for the concept.

The monk makes sense for any sort of unarmored hand-to-hand combatant because it already has all the stuff there for it. Wrestler, Boxer, Savate Master, etc... it all works better within the framework of the monk. Trying to say that the "mystic" stuff has to remain that way or can't be reskinned doesn't make sense.

doctorbadwolf said:

No, it isn’t. An action just needs to not invalidate the base class, while not being worse than just making 1-3 attacks. That isn’t hard. At all

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The point is the whole class is built around Flurry of Blows. So since every monk

doctorbadwolf said:

No, it isn’t.

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Yes it is.
You are stately that creating a whole new archetypefrom another one without thinking about the differences between the starting pint and end point is simple.

Turning the D&D monk into a professional wrestler isn't simple if you care about the tropes of a wrestler. That's the point.

doctorbadwolf said:

Laughable nonsense. A boxer should probably be a fighter, and an unarmed FS Battlemaster does a great job. If you need some sort of mystic boxer...just make a beefy monk. It’s not hard.

A ki blaster is already there. Change the sun soul’s damage type. Done.

Pro Wrestler is also just...open hand monk. Or kensei with chair as their kensei weapon.

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Now that's laugablle.

The Boxer Archetype doesn't wear armor nor use weapons but the fighter is designed to us both and can maybe be bad to decent not using one of them.

The Sun soul uses up all it's mechanical power to make ki blasts work and thus ignores the other aspects of the anime/manga martial artist.

And saying a wrestler is a open hand monk or a kensai is just forcing oneself to use the options availale and not caring that they mechanics don't match the archetype. You can't make the Undertaker or Hulk Hogan with the monk. It's easier and makes more sense to say "I'm sorry but you can't be Bret "the Hitman" Hart and make the adult red dragon tap out to the Sharpshooter" than say "You can be the Himan. Just be a monk."

Sabathius42 said:

Want them to fill in for a tank? They have Dodge as a bonus action.

Want them to be mobile? They ha e Dash as a bonus action.

Want them to kill something? They have an extra attack more than most characters at their level.

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I think the concern is that, while the monk is flexible, he does it at the expense of both:

1) An expendable resource (KI)
2) The cost of not getting to use another ability.

So for example, if I use dodge, my AC is now comparable to a heavily armored fighter....but its not really superior to one. Meanwhile my offense is lowered because I'm not using flurry.

If I flurry, I'm doing good damage....but not more than another offensive fighter. And now my defense is lower.

I can dash....which is something rogues get for free. Again I'm mobile, but that mobility costs me offense and defense.

And of course, once I'm out of Ki (which at low to mid levels happens very very often)....I'm weaker in all areas.

Justice and Rule said:

Ehhhhhhhh... a Boxer is not great with a fighter and the monk is way, way closer conceptually.



True, but also the Sun Soul is like dull as hell. Well, to me at least. YMMV.



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Pro Wrestlers and grapplers are very difficult to build in general in 5E because grappling is just difficult to get to do anything other than MMA ground and pound. The Open Hand monk doesn't really have much there, and while I've seen weird ways of trying to do stuff like suplexes, at the end of the day there's just no way of doing it with the rules as they are right now. Conceptually there's a lot of interesting mechanical potential in such a build, but I'm not sure Wizards is particularly interested in building something like it.

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Why would a suplex be something other than an unarmed attack against a target you’ve grappled?

But hey let’s work out a move for it, or better base game rules for grappling. Why not?

Justice and Rule said:

Pro Wrestlers and grapplers are very difficult to build in general in 5E because grappling is just difficult to get to do anything other than MMA ground and pound.

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Grapple gets a bad rap in 5e because it seems so much simplier than in previous editions (which....it is, its one paragraph compared to like 3 pages of details).

But if you read enough of the combat rules, you realize there are several very interesting things you can do with 5e grapple.

Pinning
There are no rules for pinning in 5e.....except there kind of is, its the shove rule.

So any class with extra attack (or depending on DM interpretation could be done at 1st level with the TWF bonus action), can make a grapple check. Then...make a check to shove for prone.

The trick is...a grappled creature has 0 speed, so they cannot stand from prone. In effect, you have them pinned. They can't move, all of their attacks are at disadvantage, and all melee attacks against them are at advantage. And they have to break the grapple to remove the condition. That is pretty darn solid.

So you could treat any "wrestling" hold as a flavor description of this mechanic.

Pick up and Drop
While there is no "throw" in the grapple rules (probably the one true missing mechanic), you can move a creature you have grappled at half speed....for free. No check, no nothing. You could move them over a pit and drop them off technically, move them into a blade barrier, etc etc.


The Ease of Grappling

Now its true that compared to a grapple master in 3e, you can't make a character that shuts down spellcasting or prevents the guy with the big ass sword from attacking. But in compromise, it is so much easier to be a grapple master in 5e. All you need, is expertise in athletics. Be a rogue or take a feat, get proficiency in athletics, and have a high strength.

And done. You are now a master of grappling. You don't have to worry about OAs, about weird funky mechanics. Just swing your superior athletics around and grapple to your hearts content. And frankly it is much easier to succeed at grappling in 5e. Very few monsters have actual proficiency in athletics let alone expertise. So a character with high strength and expertise in athletics has a much higher bonus than the vast majority of monsters it will fight.

Further, unlike previously, grappling has a minimal penalty. In the old edition, pinning meant you had to take some penalties yourself, and grappling limited what weapons you yourself could use. In 5e that's a nonissue, all you need is a free hand. Otherwise you operate with no penalties, its the power of the old 3.5 -20 to grapple check rule....without the penalty!

Two sessions ago, I had a 10th level character completely grapple dominate a balor (yes the CR 20 balor). He had a 20 strength and with expertise had a +8 athletics, for +13. The balor had a meer +7. The druid gave him enhance ability (strength), so with advantage on top it wasn't even a contest....he just grappled, proned the balor, and just moved it wherever he felt like it. It was awesome! Now the balor could (and did) use his teleport to get out of it, but the group had no issue with one character trading its actions for the balor while the rest of the party stomped on it.

doctorbadwolf said:

Why would a suplex be something other than an unarmed attack against a target you’ve grappled?

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Because just hitting a wrestler while they are standing isn't really a slam; a suplex is more than just a regular hit and puts them on the ground in a way that feels wrong with just a regular strike. Like, it's not like some wrestlers don't grab and punch people. That sort of support feels rather poor.

doctorbadwolf said:

But hey let’s work out a move for it, or better base game rules for grappling. Why not?

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I mean, why not? I mean, it's not like grapples, slams, and submissions aren't something a part of actual close combat and actually could add something to the game.

Stalker0 said:

Grapple gets a bad rap in 5e because it seems so much simplier than in previous editions (which....it is, its one paragraph compared to like 3 pages of details).

But if you read enough of the combat rules, you realize there are several very interesting things you can do with 5e grapple.

Pinning
There are no rules for pinning in 5e.....except there kind of is, its the shove rule.

So any class with extra attack (or depending on DM interpretation could be done at 1st level with the TWF bonus action), can make a grapple check. Then...make a check to shove for prone.

The trick is...a grappled creature has 0 speed, so they cannot stand from prone. In effect, you have them pinned. They can't move, all of their attacks are at disadvantage, and all melee attacks against them are at advantage. And they have to break the grapple to remove the condition. That is pretty darn solid.

So you could treat any "wrestling" hold as a flavor description of this mechanic.

Pick up and Drop
While there is no "throw" in the grapple rules (probably the one true missing mechanic), you can move a creature you have grappled at half speed....for free. No check, no nothing. You could move them over a pit and drop them off technically, move them into a blade barrier, etc etc.


The Ease of Grappling

Now its true that compared to a grapple master in 3e, you can't make a character that shuts down spellcasting or prevents the guy with the big ass sword from attacking. But in compromise, it is so much easier to be a grapple master in 5e. All you need, is expertise in athletics. Be a rogue or take a feat, get proficiency in athletics, and have a high strength.

And done. You are now a master of grappling. You don't have to worry about OAs, about weird funky mechanics. Just swing your superior athletics around and grapple to your hearts content. And frankly it is much easier to succeed at grappling in 5e. Very few monsters have actual proficiency in athletics let alone expertise. So a character with high strength and expertise in athletics has a much higher bonus than the vast majority of monsters it will fight.

Further, unlike previously, grappling has a minimal penalty. In the old edition, pinning meant you had to take some penalties yourself, and grappling limited what weapons you yourself could use. In 5e that's a nonissue, all you need is a free hand. Otherwise you operate with no penalties, its the power of the old 3.5 -20 to grapple check rule....without the penalty!

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Oh no, I've totally wild stuff with grappling. I made a Rogue 1/Shadow Monk 6 flying grappler. He had Expertise in Athletics and Acrobatics, and he managed to take an Ogre Mage down with a grapple through a lucky use of Stunning Strike! Shove/Grapple/Strike/Strike with the rest of the party joining in. It's a cool thing, especially when you can basically teleport onto dudes who aren't looking.

But at the same time, I wish there were a bit more definition. like, the Grappler Feat is kind of bad, and I wish there were some more support from classes rather than me really having to work around to do stuff with it. I think it's a cool design space that could be supported.

Stalker0 said:

Two sessions ago, I had a 10th level character completely grapple dominate a balor (yes the CR 20 balor). He had a 20 strength and with expertise had a +8 athletics, for +13. The balor had a meer +7. The druid gave him enhance ability (strength), so with advantage on top it wasn't even a contest....he just grappled, proned the balor, and just moved it wherever he felt like it. It was awesome! Now the balor could (and did) use his teleport to get out of it, but the group had no issue with one character trading its actions for the balor while the rest of the party stomped on it.

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Technically speaking that shouldn't work (unless you were at large size, since you are only supposed to be able grapple something one size larger than you), but the naughty word that because that's awesome! Recently I allowed a player of my who is a Bugbear Bear Barbarian (wow, that's a mouthful) to get into a grapple contest with a giant constrictor snake and he beat the naughty word out of it despite me giving it advantage for the size and giving him disadvantage (which was neutralized by his rage). My rolling wasn't great, but his rolling was insane.

Minigiant said:

The point is the whole class is built around Flurry of Blows. So since every monk

Yes it is.
You are stately that creating a whole new archetypefrom another one without thinking about the differences between the starting pint and end point is simple.

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If it’s a completely different archetype, like say a non-mystical/esoteric warrior, it shouldn’t be a monk. Any mystic/esoteric warrior can be either built as an existing monk, or have a subclass built for them.

Minigiant said:

Turning the D&D monk into a professional wrestler isn't simple if you care about the tropes of a wrestler. That's the point.

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The point is incorrect. You keep stating your point, but refusing to actually support it with any arguments, examples, etc.

Minigiant said:

Now that's laugablle.

The Boxer Archetype doesn't wear armor nor use weapons but the fighter is designed to us both and can maybe be bad to decent not using one of them.

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And I suggested an alt feature that would make the fighter not use armor, and the game already has a very good option for unarmed fighters.

Minigiant said:

The Sun soul uses up all it's mechanical power to make ki blasts work and thus ignores the other aspects of the anime/manga martial artist.

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What else is needed, that the base class doesn’t do? What is there other than mobility, being able to fight Unarmored and unarmed, dodge attacks more readily than others, etc?

Minigiant said:

And saying a wrestler is a open hand monk or a kensai is just forcing oneself to use the options availale and not caring that they mechanics don't match the archetype. You can't make the Undertaker or Hulk Hogan with the monk. It's easier and makes more sense to say "I'm sorry but you can't be Bret "the Hitman" Hart and make the adult red dragon tap out to the Sharpshooter" than say "You can be the Himan. Just be a monk."

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So grappling. Why can’t you just say the thing that is the answer to the question?

Grappling in 5e is what it is. That ain’t on the design of the monk.

However, dealing damage to a grappled creature is absolutely part of the system. Tapping out...isn’t part of real fights. The dragon gives up when you’ve hurt it enough to hit 0hp and you choose to knock it out rather than kill it, or when the dm decides it’s had enough.

Why on earth should there even be a D&D class that models Hulk Hogan, by the way? What a totally left field expectation to even have! Why?