D&D 5E E6 and 5e (Things I've noticed)

Faolyn

(she/her)

• Aug 24, 2021

• #21

Umbran said:

I could see someone wanting to do, in essence, E10, or E12, or something.

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Since feats are both rarer and more powerful in 5e, I'd imagine that if you continued to give them out instead of levels, it would be far less often than every 5k XP. Optionally, feats could to be "taken apart" to allow for less powerful options.

 

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Horwath

Legend

• Aug 24, 2021

• #22

my personal favorite is E9 for 5E.

it's a nice level to finish most basic class features, be it from base class or sub-class.
gain +4 proficiency. Good scaling of +0, +2, +4 or +8 for non-proficiency, half, normal and expertise.
casters gain single 5th level slot and halfcasters get to 3rd level slots.

after that just gain ASIs or levels in other classes, for their special features. max to 9 levels ofc.

 

Rune

Once A Fool

• Aug 24, 2021

• #23

rmcoen said:

I cast "Raise Thread"!

Now that people have had years to play 5e, and get to high levels... What's the general feeling now? Do we need a "5e6"? Just tweak 5e [like "no more hp after 10th level"]? Or leave 5e as is, and leave E6 in the past?

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My experience with high-level D&D is that the DM needs to put a whole lot of work into amping up monsters (especially bosses) if they want them to be challenging and last long enough to be interesting.

A large part of that is the hp; high-CR monsters often have far too few and PCs have too many. Save DC scaling is another factor. With more save or suck abilities available, it’s pretty easy to find one that targets a weak save (moreso, I imagine, with Tasha’s many Int-targeting spells).

But it’s also a matter of utility. High-level PCs have so many options available to them that they can usually stack the conditions of a fight heavily in their favor (or avoid it altogether, of course) as long as they see it coming (which is also easier). That’s not a bad thing, per se, but it is one of the things E6 successfully constrained.

Plus the disparity of ranged vs. melee characters becomes ever-more pronounced at high levels. When conditions favor it (which may be often – see above), your sharpshooting archers starting a fight at long range (up to 600 ft, no disadvantage!) can tear up an enemy before the close-range heavies can come close to reaching it. And since high-level foes are often massive, there isn’t always much of anything for them to take full-cover (the only kind that matters to a sharpshooter) behind.

 

T

THEMNGMNT

Hero

• Aug 24, 2021

• #24

Having run a campaign up through 20th level, I can say that the game math works well (not perfectly) all the way through the end. Personally, I noticed a difference in playstyle around 13th level, when 7th level spells come online and players gain the ability to do such things as plane shift or raise the dead at will. It changes the flavor and scope of the game. More fantastical and less grounded. Not entirely to my taste. But it has nothing to do with the core mechanics of the game.

 

rmcoen

Adventurer

• Aug 24, 2021

• #25

So, it sounds like we would be fine with keeping full level progression, but limiting hp at 9 or 10HD to keep up the danger level (without grossly increasing monster damage). Thank you everyone!

 

Faolyn

(she/her)

• Aug 24, 2021

• #26

rmcoen said:

So, it sounds like we would be fine with keeping full level progression, but limiting hp at 9 or 10HD to keep up the danger level (without grossly increasing monster damage). Thank you everyone!

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Well, maybe also curtailing 6th- or 7th-level and higher spells? Let the spellcasters keep their high-level slots, but for upcasting rather than for spells of those levels.

 

Rune

Once A Fool

• Aug 25, 2021

• #27

rmcoen said:

So, it sounds like we would be fine with keeping full level progression, but limiting hp at 9 or 10HD to keep up the danger level (without grossly increasing monster damage). Thank you everyone!

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Well, that might be a bit much at the higher end. The main danger is that things get pretty swingy at the highest levels of play already.* Most attacks will miss a well-optimized AC (+ the shield spell). Mobs of lesser opponents meant to tie the PCs down will get wrecked with magic. Big, scary monsters won’t have the tools to deal with the PCs’ superior range, and so on. Things will seem too easy.

But then your players’ dice will grow cold, or yours will get hot, their luck points will run out, your monsters will be dealing a whole lot more damage than you anticipated in a very quick burst, and suddenly you’re looking down the barrel of a TPK.

The astute observer may note that these are the same dangers to a campaign as those that come up at low-levels. The saving grace is that, at high-level at least, someone will probably have a plane shift prepped.

* I should point out that my experience has been exclusively with multiclassing and feats available. And magic items. Take those away and things probably get less inherently swingy. If for no other reason than because the front-line PCs will likely get hit more often.

 

Rune

Once A Fool

• Aug 25, 2021

• #28

Also, beware inevitables. Nothing scared my 20-level characters’ players more than when a squad of maruts would show up. Something about at-will plane shifting foes who never miss and do a lot of unvarying damage really spooked my players. Especially if they were caught inside. Which they inevitably were.

Especially scary when the maruts use hit-and-run tactics in three waves, with the wave that is plane shifting out relaying party positioning info to the wave about to plane shift in, while the wave that shifted in the previous turn is attacking.

 

Ancalagon

Dusty Dragon

• Aug 25, 2021

• #29

So, for those who have played at higher levels, at what level does it start "breaking down", so to speak?

 

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THEMNGMNT

Hero

• Aug 25, 2021

• #30

As I said earlier, they don't really ever "break down". The problem I experienced is that combat can get grindy in Tier 3 and Tier 4. Mostly because monsters lack sufficient offensive firepower. (There are exceptions, of course.) Monsters don't get enough attacks and their hits are underpowered. I'd suggest dialing up damage by a factor of 2x or 3x, easily. I would also dial hit points up or down -- up for boss monsters, down for the rest.

To give you an example of what I mean, a pit fiend is a pretty damn good creature. It doesn't need much modification. If PCs faced it in Tier 3, it would be a boss monster. I'd run it as written (perhaps adding some legendary resistances/actions). In Tier 4 you might need a squad of pit fiends to challenge the PCs. In that case, I'd keep their offensive numbers as-is, but reduce their hit points by...one third?...so the encounter resolved more quickly.

Unfortunately, many other high CR monsters are not as formidable, so they would need tuning on the offensive side.

 

Last edited: Aug 25, 2021