Blog (A5E) Keeping it Classy: Updated Core Classes in Level Up

Stalker0 · Oct 15, 2021

lichmaster said:
I don't want to be appeased. I just wanted to understand if there's anything else the fighter gets to make it cool. It's a class I love in o5e, and in isolation I know it will even be better in a5e. But given the excellent design choices/overhauls of the other classes and the fact that all melee classes will have access to several traditions, it seems to me that the fighter will be more a jack of all trades (traditions) than special on its own. That's all.

Understand that every school of maneuvers gets a general style, and you can fashion themes by taking ones from different schools. The fighter gets access to combinations of maneuvers that no one else does, granting them access to abilities other classes simply do not have. It’s a bigger deal than you might think at first glance.

that said the fighter does have its own style of “knacks” and has social abilities like “steely mein” that help them in the social and exploration areas, but until I see the new book I can only go off play test

lichmaster · Oct 15, 2021

This Effin’ GM said:
Personally, that’s exactly what I think a fighter should be. You want rakish duelist? Play rogue or fighter. Greatest archer? Ranger or fighter. Swing the biggest axe? Barbarian or fighter. Need to do all three? Look no further than the fighter.

Eh, not sure I agree here. The rogue has a defining feature: sneak attack. The Barbarian has rage and effects on crits in a5e iirc.
The fighter doesn't have either, of course, and its versatility is present in the maneuvers, but keep in mind it has only one fighting style available at low levels. I guess I don't see versatility as the defining characteristic of what a fighter should be. It should of course be an important part, but not the whole thing.

This Effin’ GM said:
I was also shocked at the loss of action surge but a lot of what seems to be happening in the design of A5E is that each class has abilities that can’t be reached via dip. Eldritch blast is based purely on warlock level, not taking a quick dip to get the cantrip. I can’t imagine a one or two level dip of fighter is going to going to have the same oomph with fighter based stances and maneuvers than a straight fighter is going to allow, nor what Action Surge was able to get us before with a quick dip.

I could be wrong but they specifically called out that they were trying to make dips less attractive on fighter and this was the reasoning for getting rid of action surge. I truly doubt the story stops at flat removal.

edit: I do agree though, this article didn’t do much to instil that confidence. My first words to my friend about it were “I'm nervous about the loss of action surge, as they don't in the article seem to mention what the fighter gets in return, just that it gets ‘stuff’”

It's not that I mourn over action surge per se. But it was a unique feature of the fighter, that arguably caused several problems with multiclassing. The point is, as you said: what do you get instead? Just a bunch of maneuvers? It's ok, I guess...

This Effin’ GM · Oct 15, 2021

I think it’s also important to note the concern about adepts having to wait a while or spend a feat to get access to higher level combat maneuvers. I think that’s the point with the fighter: they don’t have to do that.

“Let everyone else take a while to master the flying crane kick. Makes sense, you all have spiritual awakenings going on. Me? I’m here to flying crane kick the hell out of those goblins and chew some bubble gum. And I’m all out of-“ (goblin scream)

Jmarso · Oct 15, 2021

timespike said:
Yeah, I wrote a whole article about that for the site, got it wrong, was rightly corrected by the forums, rewrote it, and now have nightmares about the crazy cheese that's possible under RAW. If the build and circumstances are just right, a Rogue(Thief) 17/Fighter 2/Sorcerer 1 with the right feats can get eight spells off in a single round.

That might be technically possible within the rules, but 8 spells in 6 seconds is something I would never realistically allow as a DM. It irritates me no end when players try to pull stuff like this through builds. No game mechanic is perfectly built, especially for higher levels. This sort of case breaks the spirit of the rules, if not the actual law as written. Common sense needs to be applied, even in a world where magic is possible.

lichmaster · Oct 15, 2021

Stalker0 said:
Understand that every school of maneuvers gets a general style, and you can fashion themes by taking ones from different schools. The fighter gets access to combinations of maneuvers that no one else does, granting them access to abilities other classes simply do not have. It’s a bigger deal than you might think at first glance.

This may be a good point. If there's interesting synergies that can be played with, there could be a benefit in picking up the fighter. But you may be able to get those by multiclassing, so again the unique feature could easily be replicated elsewhere.

Stalker0 said:
that said the fighter does have its own style of “knacks” and has social abilities like “steely mein” that help them in the social and exploration areas, but until I see the new book I can only go off play test

Knacks and social features are ok, every class should have them, to different extents. But a fighter should first and foremost.. fight, imo

This Effin’ GM · Oct 15, 2021

Jmarso said:
That might be technically possible within the rules, but 8 spells in 6 seconds is something I would never realistically allow as a DM. It irritates me no end when players try to pull stuff like this through builds. No game mechanic is perfectly built, especially for higher levels. This sort of case breaks the spirit of the rules, if not the actual law as written. Common sense needs to be applied, even in a world where magic is possible.

While I agree that the DM is the final line of defense for this kind of thing, 5e is pretty notorious (imo) for forcing DMs too often to have to be the one to put it down, rather than making sure the design was there to avoid it.

Jmarso · Oct 15, 2021

This Effin’ GM said:
While I agree that the DM is the final line of defense for this kind of thing, 5e is pretty notorious (imo) for forcing DMs too often to have to be the one to put it down, rather than making sure the design was there to avoid it.

This is one of the irritating things about 5E. Not to bash the system overall, though. All things being equal, it's pretty good. I'm looking forward to LU making it even better.

This Effin’ GM · Oct 15, 2021

Jmarso said:
This is one of the irritating things about 5E. Not to bash the system overall, though. All things being equal, it's pretty good. I'm looking forward to LU making it even better.

“We often criticize things we love, not because it’s bad but because we want it above all to be better.” -Someone, somewhere, I dunno.

lichmaster · Oct 15, 2021

This Effin’ GM said:
“We often criticize things we love, not because it’s bad but because we want it above all to be better.” -Someone, somewhere, I dunno.

That's exactly my stance about LU. I didn't want to come off as someone who dislikes it or is in doubt whether to purchase it: I was in since the first playtest material and didn't manage to be backer #1 simply because I had to enter my credit card details on KS. I love what I see and what has been done. I simply wish it to be the best of the best of what it can be

Garthanos · Oct 15, 2021

Garthanos said:
Action surge I do definitely agree is also a potent pop out of awesome it was even better as the action point mechanic in the previous edition and was earned/acquired the more intense the day was in terms of encounters too... It has been noted that many maneuvers in level up enable an extra attack of some sort.

If I understand correctly
Cleave for 2 pts and at higher Rank Wild Swing (1 pt) for instance.
When you have 2 attacks that could be 4 attacks actually launched.
When you have 3 attacks that could be 6 attacks launched.
and so on.

It appears to me they moved the main for the fighter used functionality of action surge... to maneuvers.

Ok no I missed something these additional attacks use your reaction so nope no more than 1 extra just spread out more not in a big burst one turn burst.

That is kind of disappointing and that Wild attack no longer feels so wild just like a cheaper cleave.

Blog (A5E) Keeping it Classy: Updated Core Classes in Level Up

Stalker0

Legend

lichmaster

Hero

This Effin’ GM

Hero

Jmarso

Adventurer

lichmaster

Hero

This Effin’ GM

Hero

Jmarso

Adventurer

This Effin’ GM

Hero

lichmaster

Hero

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight

Similar Threads