D&D 5E Why do guns do so much damage?

SO, after 22 pages of notes, this is what my takeaways are:

• Firearms are Simple weapons, but one still has to be trained with them. (I.e. you don't get it just for having Simple Weapon Proficiency.)
• Firearms are Loud. Pistol is thunderclap (100'), Rifle is thunderwave (300')
• Firearms can be fired prone, like a crossbow; bows can't.
• D&D Firearms should be considered breechloaders, with a small Short range and a less-than-longbow inaccurate Long Range.

-------- OPTIONAL: At half of Short range, penetration is very high; add a die of damage.
* D&D Firearms should not fire more than once per round - probably once per 2 rounds, but Game. In balance, increase damage with Extra Attack instead (to reflect increased skill). This is mirrored by combat cantrip increases.
-------- EXCEPTION: You can fire multiple loaded pistols in a single round... but then they must all be reloaded!
* Firearms don't like being wet. (In my game, +2 "fumble" range if gun or ammo is wet, +4 if both. I.e. "Nat 1" all the way to a roll of 5.)
-------- SIMPLER: Water + Firearm = Disadvantage.

• If fixed with a blade, a pistol can be used as a dagger; a rifle as a Spear with Versatile (d8). [Without, either can be used as an Improvised club.]
• Your fantasy setting will influence availability of firearms, and their effect on society.

-------- In my world, the Blackrock Clan of dwarves constructs sealed tubes powered by alchemy... and trapped to explode if opened. They work like firearms, with a receptacle for bullets, but you can only get them from the BCDs, and they can't be (haven't been) reverse-engineered. Imperial Nobles have them, the Imperial Navy has a few cannon... and that's it. And, by the way, the PCs aren't in the Empire!

And most importantly...
* D&D combat - especially 5e - is an abstraction! AC is not "armor and deflection", and HP are not "meat points". Don't worry about guns vs. bows, vs. swords!
-------- In my world, they are loud simple "crossbows" that can inflict hideous wounds (multiple dice, multiplied by critical hits).... Fighters eschew them for the quicker (skilled) bow and arrow, while Rogues and some Clerics cherish them for small powerful ranged weapons that take little skill.

I am baffled that no one has mentioned this, bullets are not poking holes through people, that's what it might look like on the outside but on impact hydrostatic pressure forces everything soft enough to get out of the way to open up into a temporary wound cavity, the is a ton of ballistics gel testing videos online for evidence, I love swords and axes and bows, but there isn't much comparison, If you've ever hunted with bows and guns I'm pretty sure your experience will reflect this. even black powder and round lead bullets cause damage way out of proportion to their size, its all about energy delivered, and speed gets a real world squared multiplier when calculating energy. i'm not claiming the dnd rules are perfect, if I wanted to design a system that reflected guns real damage potential for something like pistol, it would be 1d6 crit range 18-20 with a x3 for a critical hit. essentially giving a high chance of non critical hit like a graze with devastating effects when shots are well placed.

I am baffled that no one has mentioned this, bullets are not poking holes through people, that's what it might look like on the outside but on impact hydrostatic pressure forces everything soft enough to get out of the way to open up into a temporary wound cavity, the is a ton of ballistics gel testing videos online for evidence, I love swords and axes and bows, but there isn't much comparison, If you've ever hunted with bows and guns I'm pretty sure your experience will reflect this. even black powder and round lead bullets cause damage way out of proportion to their size, its all about energy delivered, and speed gets a real world squared multiplier when calculating energy. i'm not claiming the dnd rules are perfect, if I wanted to design a system that reflected guns real damage potential for something like pistol, it would be 1d6 crit range 18-20 with a x3 for a critical hit. essentially giving a high chance of non critical hit like a graze with devastating effects when shots are well placed.

tetropteryx said:

I am baffled that no one has mentioned this, bullets are not poking holes through people, that's what it might look like on the outside but on impact hydrostatic pressure forces everything soft enough to get out of the way to open up into a temporary wound cavity, the is a ton of ballistics gel testing videos online for evidence, I love swords and axes and bows, but there isn't much comparison, If you've ever hunted with bows and guns I'm pretty sure your experience will reflect this. even black powder and round lead bullets cause damage way out of proportion to their size, its all about energy delivered, and speed gets a real world squared multiplier when calculating energy. i'm not claiming the dnd rules are perfect, if I wanted to design a system that reflected guns real damage potential for something like pistol, it would be 1d6 crit range 18-20 with a x3 for a critical hit. essentially giving a high chance of non critical hit like a graze with devastating effects when shots are well placed.

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And yet, the survival rate of gunshot wounds to the torso are quite high.

And I’m pretty sure this point has been brought up in this fairly old thread, and responded to.

doctorbadwolf said:

And yet, the survival rate of gunshot wounds to the torso are quite high.

And I’m pretty sure this point has been brought up in this fairly old thread, and responded to.

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It has been a while so I don't remember if it came up before.

Would exploding damage dice help with the massive variability of some weapons? (roll a d6, if you get a 6 roll a d6 labeled 0-5 and add it, rerolling again if you get a 5, keep going until you get a non-5)

Cadence said:

It has been a while so I don't remember if it came up before.

Would exploding damage dice help with the massive variability of some weapons? (roll a d6, if you get a 6 roll a d6 labeled 0-5 and add it, rerolling again if you get a 5, keep going until you get a non-5)

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I think that did come up before, and I still think it's a promising idea for 5e guns.

I also really like the sound of the gun deck rules in Weird Frontiers (for DCC). From @robowieland 's review:

"The most inspired mechanic in the game is the gun deck. Each player keeps a deck of cards handy and flips over a card when they shoot. If they pull a face card, it’s a bonus to hit and damage. If it’s an ace or an eight, it’s a fumble. Jokers act as critical hits and misses. The deck trumps any critical hits or misses rolled. Players can reshuffle their decks by cleaning their guns during downtime. The gun deck is a fun way to increase the danger of firearms in a fantasy system which often struggle to handle their advantages and disadvantages when added to swords and bows. If I had to swipe one mechanic for DCC this would be it."

I know, playing cards do a better job of evoking a wild west setting than fantasy. But I feel like that mechanic, or something similar, could capture the randomness of guns, including making them unappealing for characters who crave the consistency and reliability of a good blade.

Cadence said:

It has been a while so I don't remember if it came up before.

Would exploding damage dice help with the massive variability of some weapons? (roll a d6, if you get a 6 roll a d6 labeled 0-5 and add it, rerolling again if you get a 5, keep going until you get a non-5)

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IMO that range of potential damage creates bad gameplay. I’d much prefer to just keep the damage ranges about where they are, and even tighten them up a bit.

doctorbadwolf said:

IMO that range of potential damage creates bad gameplay. I’d much prefer to just keep the damage ranges about where they are, and even tighten them up a bit.

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Sure. It certainly would be an entirely different level of lethality, and be awful in a lot of game settings!

Cadence said:

Sure. It certainly would be an entirely different level of lethality, and be awful in a lot of game settings!

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Yeah, maybe fun in others, but I definitely prefer players know the general odds of survival, and GMs be able to predict how many rounds it will take to take someone out.

tetropteryx said:

I am baffled that no one has mentioned this, bullets are not poking holes through people, that's what it might look like on the outside but on impact hydrostatic pressure forces everything soft enough to get out of the way to open up into a temporary wound cavity, the is a ton of ballistics gel testing videos online for evidence, I love swords and axes and bows, but there isn't much comparison, If you've ever hunted with bows and guns I'm pretty sure your experience will reflect this. even black powder and round lead bullets cause damage way out of proportion to their size, its all about energy delivered, and speed gets a real world squared multiplier when calculating energy. i'm not claiming the dnd rules are perfect, if I wanted to design a system that reflected guns real damage potential for something like pistol, it would be 1d6 crit range 18-20 with a x3 for a critical hit. essentially giving a high chance of non critical hit like a graze with devastating effects when shots are well placed.

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It would probably be good to notice which threads are old. Not because there is a rule against posting in them, but merely because most members of the conversation have likely moved on. Regardless, interesting point. However, honestly, this is one of those issues where the rest of the game has so much abstraction baked into it that doing this for bullet weapons won't actually increase the realism of the situation (kinda like getting the bullet speed down to 5 significant digits, but only having the bullet mass down to 2, or a similar analogy).