D&D 5E So Is The Dex Based Fighter Just Strictly Better?

UngeheuerLich · Jul 1, 2022

Mort said:
The problem is, generally, for a strength based character Alert is a BIG investment vs. say PAM or GWM (or even sentinel). Fcusing on Initiative if you are strength based is rarely remotely optimal.

Except, of course, Strength also has the largest number of "cheats" re: magic. If your DM is (overly) generous with items that characters want, the Strength based character can dismiss focusing on strength advancement and still achieve a strength higher than possible with any other stat.

No. focussing on initiative is never optimal. Even for a dex baswd character it is an afterthough. And the only straw that seems to magically make dex totally unbalanced.
Even the dex saving throw is a weak argument. Maing strength saving throws is often often much more important than reducing the occasional fireball damage.

Of course we are speaking about fighters and barbarians and paladins mainly. Probably the occasional ranger or rogue or bard. But usually not the wizard whonby all means should take dex over str... but also int over dex.

I have not seen concincing calculations that dex is overpowered compared to strength. Even twf is better with str btw.
Two handaxes beat dexterity by miles*. Especially when you consider that the opportunity cost for str based characters are way lower if they decide to take the twf feat before str/dex is capped.

*Of course miles defined by OMG dex is overpowered people.

Re GoOP: they are items for dex based characters who then can wear heavy armor and grapple and lift things. Str based characters usually won't get mileage out of it.

AbdulAlhazred · Jul 1, 2022

EzekielRaiden said:
On this we will have to agree to disagree. I do not think very highly of 5e's balance, and the several issues that have arisen from that balance over the years tell me I'm not wrong for thinking so. The TL;DR of my criticism is, they blew 2/3 or more of their playtesting cycle frittering around with stuff that was never going to work, putting all their eggs into baskets they had to abandon, and instantaneously abandoning ideas that actually would have worked if they'd been given a chance. We got a game that fundamentally only got about a year, year and a half of design by a reduced team. And it shows.

Meh, I think there are issues of a typical D&Dish nature with resource refresh stuff, and non-casters simply cannot achieve the level of plot power of a caster, but I do not believe those were really within the remit of the 5e team to fix. I mean, 4e already fixed them, if that was the agenda then building 5e would have been a total waste from day one, so...

So, nope, it ain't perfect. OTOH it ain't the complete hot mess than 2e and 3e were either. (2e core has the obvious classic D&D faults, but when you lard on top a whole bunch of poorly conceived supplements it goes to heck). All of this is far beyond where this thread was focused though. At the level of a balance between fighter builds, you'd be hard pressed to do better than 5e. A STR fighter will work fine, and can do excellent damage output, just like a DEX fighter can. The DEX guy might be a bit more flexible, etc. but not THAT much.

I was around during the whole playtest, have a lot of the material they tried out or wrote up for discussion. There are things in there which I would have done differently, sure, but then I wasn't exactly 5e's intended audience, so I don't really know how to measure better or worse vs what they got, as neither one suites me that much!

AbdulAlhazred · Jul 1, 2022

Crimson Longinus said:
I really don't understand why gauntlets of ogre power or similar items exist. There shouldn't be a magic item that can completely bypass whatever you assigned to the ability score. That's just crazy. And are there similar items for other stats?

Some, my super Tabaxi DEX TWF Battlemaster had one that raised his CON to 19, lol. I forget what it is called, some sort of amulet (and I am not sure if it is a standard magic item or not). It didn't create a stupidly overpowered character by itself, but it meant I could put some points into INT and whatever. Point being, yes there are at least a few such items out there.

AbdulAlhazred · Jul 1, 2022

Crimson Longinus said:
Yeah, I now remember that I read that and disagreed. I allow inserting bonus actions between attacks, I haven't noticed it breaking anything.

This is all why the 4e style 4 action type model with Attack, Move, and Minor metered into your turn was a WAY better rules construct than "Oh, there's this funny thing that isn't really an action, but it is an action." I mean, its nice that 5e allows interpolation of move and attack, but its not like you can't write that into a system where you have actions as a thing.

Horwath · Jul 1, 2022

STR just needs little better melee/thrown weapons weapons

bump longsword, warhamme battleaxe to 1d10(1d12 versatile) and greatsword/greataxe/maul to 2d8 and you have no more problems
also add 1d8 Light weapon so STR dual wield is better at damage than dex dual wield.

Oofta · Jul 1, 2022

Crimson Longinus said:
I really don't understand why gauntlets of ogre power or similar items exist. There shouldn't be a magic item that can completely bypass whatever you assigned to the ability score. That's just crazy. And are there similar items for other stats?

I prefer 3.5's method - they add to your existing score they don't replace it. So my house rule is that gauntlets of ogre power add +2 to strength up to a max of 20.

It never made sense to me that this kid

could hit as hard as the strongest person alive because he put on dad's belt as part of his costume.

Helldritch · Jul 1, 2022

Oofta said:
I prefer 3.5's method - they add to your existing score they don't replace it. So my house rule is that gauntlets of ogre power add +2 to strength up to a max of 20.

It never made sense to me that this kid
View attachment 252421
could hit as hard as the strongest person alive because he put on dad's belt as part of his costume.

But... but... BUT it is his DAD'S BELT!

Oofta · Jul 1, 2022

Horwath said:
STR just needs little better melee/thrown weapons weapons

bump longsword, warhamme battleaxe to 1d10(1d12 versatile) and greatsword/greataxe/maul to 2d8 and you have no more problems
also add 1d8 Light weapon so STR dual wield is better at damage than dex dual wield.

You could also just remove rapiers and make longbows strength based. Of course that would be a decrease of power, which doesn't seem to be in vogue.

AbdulAlhazred · Jul 1, 2022

Oofta said:
You could also just remove rapiers and make longbows strength based. Of course that would be a decrease of power, which doesn't seem to be in vogue.

You could simply have 'arming sword' be a STR based version of the Rapier too. It also has the virtue of being a more historically accurate terminology. I mean, that leaves the weird and entirely ahistorical 'long sword' in play, but whatever, D&D weapon terminology is a whole other thing and not going to ever be fixed, lol.

Helldritch · Jul 1, 2022

Or simply make that only strength bonuses go to damage.
Dex becomes Init, Hit and AC.
Str becomes Hit and Dmg.
Allow full dex for medium and light armor and here you go. Dex is no longer that important.
...
...
...
Isn't it very close to what 1ed did?

D&D 5E So Is The Dex Based Fighter Just Strictly Better?

UngeheuerLich

Legend

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

Horwath

Legend

Oofta

Legend

Helldritch

Hero

Oofta

Legend

AbdulAlhazred

Legend

Helldritch

Hero

Similar Threads