D&D General Skill challenges: action resolution that centres the fiction

Imaro

Legend
How is the turn-by-turn character of D&D combat resolution possibly organic? It's hard to find a clearer example of artifice in RPG resolution frameworks.
I think if you actually read how I defined "organic" it's pretty easy to see how D&D combat does fit my definition of it.

In D&D combat...
1. Initiative is rolled (Mechanic) which informs the fiction of the order in which characters, NPC's and monsters act.
2. The combat loop... you declare what your character is trying to do on their initiative (flowing from the mechanics and fiction created previously) which informs the fiction... The DM then informs you of the proper mechanic to use for said action declaration, the result of which in turn informs the fiction. Rinse and repeat. At no part in combat is there only one mechanic used to generate a "success", or a pre-defined number of attack rolls or failures to hit that invoke a win or loose state. This is what I mean when I use the word organic.
But does succeeding at the task take the player (and their PC) closer to achieving the desired goal/stakes? Or not? This is all under the authority of the GM. Which is the key difference from a skill challenge. (Or other closed-scene resolution.) I pick this up not far below.

That would depend on what the task is and what the overall goal is wouldn't it? If my overall goal is to reach the Hidden Vale of the Archmage as quickly as possible but I successfully forage food for the night while we are moving towards the Vale... does that get me closer to my overall goal if successful?

More importantly doesn't the DM have the latitude to declare that a skill can't be used or that it's use doesn't garner a success? In fact I remember a skill challenge example (possibly in the DMG1) where the successful use of a particular skill (I believe intimidation) actually causes a failure... talk about hidden information and gotchas.
 

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In certain situations I will use a SC, I have even posted my versions of them on here. They are a tool for me - like Skill Checks in 3.5e, Fail Forward, Yes but...etc
I'm just curious though, for the crowd with the style play to find out how does that line up with pre-planned SC?
Well... it depends on what you are playing to find out! I mean, is it 'how brave the PCs are' or something else? A totally hard scripted SC is just a 'dungeon' of a certain length, and not especially that interesting in terms of narrativist play, usually. While I would agree with the proposition that the 4e DMG writeup of SCs seems to be pretty firm on there being a lot of predetermined stuff in them (DCs, which skills can be used, and to what mechanical effect, etc.) a lot is also left undefined, or can be left undefined. You know the goal, the opposition, etc. but the players are almost surely going to come up with approaches that haven't been 'gamed through' by the GM. They will suggest things, improvise, spend resources in ways you had not considered, etc. Its 5 heads against one, and I'm no genius! I have players of great cunning and resourcefulness, NOTHING goes according to any plan I make! I mean, you don't think I got to practically zero prep and ad-hoc scene framing with closed format scene resolution on purpose, did you? Nope, players ground all my plans down into a fine powder of giant bone, demon ichor, dragon scales, etc. and I was left with no other choice! ;)
 

I'm having a bit of trouble parsing what you are saying here but I'm going to take a stab at it and if I'm wrong let me know...

1. The crux seems to be...A GM who has no pre-constructed mine (and thus the obstacles in it to get out).. decides to just say fictionally you got out of the mine after a few skill checks... though if these are the checks that flowed organically from the facts known about the mine and the PC's action choices... I'm not seeing how this would be wrong.
I didn't really call it 'wrong'. If you think about it, these are really issues of pacing and drama. Only the totality of play can positively say what is or is not 'good', and even then only in respect of the players' agenda(s). OTOH, the SC framework, with its different sized SCs (complexity) is a pretty nice tool here!
2. The SC framework has you decide beforehand that there needs to b 12 successes or 3 failures so you continue past the few skill checks to make sure that minimum number is met. But in a game like 5e you would have never chosen to come up with the mine carts or jumping goblins because it didn't enforce Y number of successes or X failures before the PC's could get out.

So my thoughts...

If the mine is mapped or detailed beforehand then I should know what obstacles are present in it that would impede the PC's leaving... If it is not detailed I should let the themes, and previously established fiction of the mine determine them. The actual number of checks made would be wholly dependent on the actions of the PC's and the resulting fiction of said actions. The number of successes vs failures to succeed or end would again be dependent upon the actions of the PC's and the resulting fiction.

For many players this system works, they trust their DM to create the obstacles and difficulties (Just as he would in a SC) as well as to judge how their actions affect the resulting fiction, DC's and further obstacles... (just as he would in a SC). Again the biggest difference I see here is that some groups either don't trust their DM to manage the "correct" number of obstacles and/or the DM doesn't want that responsibility. I can see it as an issue arising for some but I think there was a vast number of DM's who saw this as the answer to the wrong problem.

To further expound, and these are just my thoughts and opinions, many were looking at more robust and more granular resolution systems for their social and exploration conflicts... not a framework to mount it on. They wanted perhaps something akin to social and exploration feats or skill knacks. IMO, 4e got much closer to what many were looking for with some of their utility powers (and if I am remembering correctly... Star Wars SAGA did an even better job at showcasing something close to what many wanted)... Again I just thing SC's addressed an issue many groups just weren't having and weren't looking for a solution to.
Well, I can't say that I possess the kind of broad knowledge of many many groups that would be required to decide that, I can only discuss what I know about.
 

pemerton

Legend
Upthread, @AbdulAlhazred mentioned "rightward arrows" - that is, moments in play when the fiction feeds into the mechanics.

As per the OP, skill challenge resolution involves rightward arrows, the most obvious being that the fiction establishes what checks are possible. Without that fiction - which it is the job of the GM to provide, as per the DMG (p 74: "You describe the environment, listen to the players’ responses, let them make their skill checks, and narrate the results") - then actions can't be declared by the players.

Here are two RPG resolution systems that don't involve rightward arrows:

*As Vincent Baker has himself noted, In A Wicked Age the initial description of the situation and action generates a rightward arrow (depending on what I describe my character as doing, I build my dice pool from 2 of the 6 descriptors on my sheet). But from that point on there are no rightward arrows. The rules tell us to accompany our dice rolls with narration of actions, but those are purely "optional" in the sense that you can still roll the dice and compare the totals even if no fiction is narrated.

*Agon is a wonderful Homeric heroes RPG from John Harper. Nearly all resolution is by a single opposed check - the fictional context is established, the players describe their heroes' approach to overcoming the obstacle that confronts them, and then dice pools are built, rolled and compared. After the mathematical outcome is determined, each player then "recites their deeds", in order from the poorest-rolling to the best-rolling. The rules require incorporating reference, in that narration, to all the elements the player drew on to build their pool, but just as for In A Wicked Age this is "optional" in the sense that the resolution won't change if it is not done.

Some conflicts in Agon are "battles" - a series of applications of the above procedure. But in these cases, too, there are no real rightward arrows. The first contest determines who gains a superior position in the battle, but this expresses itself in mechanical terms (ie a bonus die for an upcoming dice pool). There is then the resolution of the "threats", that is, the bad consequences that will follow from the actions of the opponent if the heroes don't successfully defend against them. But the consequences of the threats typically don't follow through to subsequent framing and resolution. There is also the possibility to "seize control" of the battle: whoever wins here (heroes or their opponent) gets to establish the stakes and some key mechanical parameters of the finale. But those can be expressed in purely mechanical terms - the fiction, again, is "optional".​

I think this shows that, while skill challenges cop a lot of flack, they have some clever elements in their design. They're not perfect, but nor are they an amateur design effort.
 

I don't have it yet but apparently 5e compatible Doctors and Daleks adapts the 5e combat system to handle out-logicking or out-quipping your enemies to handle combat lite roleplaying.

"Rules for playing fast-paced, combat-light sci-fi adventures using the world’s most popular roleplaying game system. Fight like the Doctor with non-lethal weapons, manoeuvres, gadgets, and the power of emotional and logical arguments — or just run away really fast!"

Sounds interesting but I will wait to see how well the transition from narration/fiction to game mechanics works for that.
Right, so that could be fun, but honestly its pretty vague, the mechanics could be SCs! ;) I mean, why not an 'escape from the Daleks' SC? You say various witty and clever things that get into their heads and screw them all up, while you cleverly utilize your sonic screwdriver to descramble their neurotronic masker so that they are forced to retreat from Earth! K-9 pulls some shenanigans, the red headed companion manages to stumble on the secret descrambling code, and you manage to unfritz the Tardis just long enough to make your exit!
 

And here is where I think we fundamentally disagree. I do want to point out, that I don't think these situations require a unique point of game design in every instance, I think an interesting game emerges from their iteration, not from having a set of unique mechanics applied to all of them individually.

I don't think, for the record, that encounters and obstacles should be designed intentionally as intricate puzzles in the sense you're saying, I think that will happily all live in a resolution system that exist ahead of time. A castle isn't a problem to solve unless a player decides it is one; arguably "things in the setting" are more like toys and the actions available to players are the child's hand they can use to manipulate them.



I think a ton of that work is offloaded on having iterative and variable goals. The game design work underlying an interesting tactical board game and an RPG are similar, but I think the need for each decision in the board game is necessarily higher as you don't have any motivation outside of that specified by the game to fall back on. Players uniquely get to care about anything they want inside an RPG, which provides meaning and context to their actions more broadly than say, the victory conditions in Spirit Island, which are set ahead of time, and only loosely mapped to fiction.

That and you have generally want to wrap up your board game in a few hours, which means the decision making must necessarily be much tighter and engaging, vs. the months-years of playtime you might have in an RPG.



You know I don't actually disagree about this point, I just don't think the link is where everyone is putting it with a skill challenge. The situation and goals are the interesting fictional elements that make RPGs engaging, not deciding my course of action. That's entirely gameplay, and that's entirely mediated by character immersion. My character wants something, there is a situation I need to resolve to get the something, now I play a game to get there. The first two elements are the fictional connection, not the bit where I decide what I'm doing.



I screamed loud and hard in the 5e playtests that we needed objective skill DCs, and I of course did not get them. My preferred resolution system would specify the actions that are possible with each skill, the time they take, relevant modifiers, and the difficulty of static checks, opposed checks, and so on. I would be fine with a system that didn't necessarily use randomness in skill evaluation. Perhaps instead your level of skill just opens various declarations, and you use those to overcome whatever challenges are set your way. I haven't yet found a diceless system that isn't incredibly loose with its available set of actions, but who knows, design might get there.



Or perhaps our fighter is specialized in jumping, and has specifically sought this wall as an entry point to the keep, because being able to leverage jumping is more effective for this fighter than other actions, and by making a leap he's avoided a series of other possible failure points.

What you're doing right there is the thing I'm talking about. You've flattened the scenario thus that any approach has roughly the same value, and all that changes is the description. I mean, not to play into the meme, but I'm saying I want to be able to "win at D&D" in the very specific and limited context of any given challenge. I want to be presented with a situation and then through my choices come out of that situation in a state I think is better than some alternative. Or, fail to do so, which can be equally interesting.



I mean, we might be at the agree to disagree point here. I really do believe it's possible to provide players a comprehensive set of available actions that have discrete fictional mapping, thus that they can use that palette to approach a wide variety of fictional situations.

And yeah, I always found SCs kind of baffling in the context of 4e, as they very much lean toward the underlying spirit of your "rulings" style play, just more mechanistically than has been historically the case. Why shouldn't the out of combat game be as specified as the in-combat one? It's always been weird to me that the edition arguably most lauded for pushing player agency in combat was so happy to have a low-agency game outside of it.



Yeah, I'm criticizing very specifically SCs as a not particularly engaging tactical game, and claiming that such a tactical game can and should exist inside skill systems (and out-of-combat RPG resolution more broadly). SCs are obviously a 4e invention and very related to that system, but I generally have found that much virtue that gets ascribed to them is not intrinsic to their structure.
Yeah, I got that the criticism was not a general one. I think we just don't agree on where the 'juice' comes from. You, for example, called my analysis of the wall scenario 'flattening' and I don't see it that way at all. I see 3 different potentially widely diverging paths!

I think there could be a lot of different check systems. In fact in my own 4e-like game things are cast in a bit different light, though the essence of the 4e skill system is there. Other things play off it in a bit different way, for instance 'practices' (which includes things like rituals) simply change what skill you are using (which of course will presumably change the bonuses you can apply) as well as altering the fiction (IE I could cast a 'fly' ritual to replace an Athletics check with an Arcana check when scaling a cliff). HoML also allows you to pay for a guaranteed success with practices if you wish, and can afford it. But all these checks still take place within the context of the closed scene resolution concept. If there are reasons why it seems, in a dramatic/narrative sense, to resolve a certain part of the overall story with a single closed scene, then you can zoom in or out however much you want. Now, maybe deterministic diceless resolution would work OK. I have only used it in some games that I think fit your description of 'incredibly loose with its available set of actions' as you say. So that's an interesting game design discussion.
 

Just try to put this to bed once and for all (LOL AT THAT HAPPENING!...fast forward 2 years and let's have this same conversation for 11ty4th time again, eh?), this is the 2010 errata

SKILLS.JPG


CLEVER IDEAS.JPG


The upshot of this should be clear:

* There is no such things as turns in 4e Skill Challenges. When you participate.

* There is no such thing as this prescriptive structure of unassailable, preplanned Primary Skills that must be hewed to. Not only do you not need to do that, but you're encouraged not to. Let players come up with clever, thematic moves in response to the situation/obstacle that has been framed and use the appropriate DC...which is outlined in the Skill Challenge Complexity part of the rules:

SC COMPLEXITY.JPG


So, effectively, Skill Challenges are like most conflict resolution on the gaming market and are exactly what I (and @pemerton and @AbdulAlhazred ) have said above.

Goal/Stakes > Frame Situation/Obstacle > Player OODA Loop > Action Resolution (possibly with buff from fictional postioning-attendant power usage and/or with Secondary Skill and/or Advantage...or debuff from immediately preceding failure) or currency expenditure (Coin, Ritual, Daily) to ensure 1 or 2 successes > Change the Situation post Action Resolution w/ new Obstacle/Situation on success or appropriate Complication/Cost on failure > Rinse/Repeat until Win/Loss Con cements Stakes.

These aren't prescriptive railroads...they never needed to be even in DMG1...I've never run a designed prepared SC...I never needed to.

Yes, if you had prior indie game exposure with closed scene conflict resolution, you were surely better off in the grokking and execution of 4e Skill Challenges from the get-go. They could have done a better job with making the concepts, ethos, and techniques that undergird scene-based conflict resolution in games like Fate and Dogs in the Vineyard or Shadows of Yesterday etc. My guess is they knew they were already in shaky water with the Trad establishment of D&D (who was waging a scorched earth campaign on 4e well before release) so they limited the transparency of provocative indie concepts like Cut to the Action (except OOPS "Skip the gate guards and get to the fun!") and Fail Forward because they were in the middle of a TTRPG culture war at that time (and EVERYONE KNEW IT...I was living it) even though both Fail Forward and Cut to the Action were obviously and clearly in the text of 4e from the get-go.
 

Imaro

Legend
Just try to put this to bed once and for all (LOL AT THAT HAPPENING!...fast forward 2 years and let's have this same conversation for 11ty4th time again, eh?), this is the 2010 errata

View attachment 258471

View attachment 258472

The upshot of this should be clear:

* There is no such things as turns in 4e Skill Challenges. When you participate.

* There is no such thing as this prescriptive structure of unassailable, preplanned Primary Skills that must be hewed to. Not only do you not need to do that, but you're encouraged not to. Let players come up with clever, thematic moves in response to the situation/obstacle that has been framed and use the appropriate DC...which is outlined in the Skill Challenge Complexity part of the rules:

View attachment 258473

So, effectively, Skill Challenges are like most conflict resolution on the gaming market and are exactly what I (and @pemerton and @AbdulAlhazred ) have said above.

Goal/Stakes > Frame Situation/Obstacle > Player OODA Loop > Action Resolution (possibly with buff from fictional postioning-attendant power usage and/or with Secondary Skill and/or Advantage...or debuff from immediately preceding failure) or currency expenditure (Coin, Ritual, Daily) to ensure 1 or 2 successes > Change the Situation post Action Resolution w/ new Obstacle/Situation on success or appropriate Complication/Cost on failure > Rinse/Repeat until Win/Loss Con cements Stakes.

These aren't prescriptive railroads...they never needed to be even in DMG1...I've never run a designed prepared SC...I never needed to.

Yes, if you had prior indie game exposure with closed scene conflict resolution, you were surely better off in the grokking and execution of 4e Skill Challenges from the get-go. They could have done a better job with making the concepts, ethos, and techniques that undergird scene-based conflict resolution in games like Fate and Dogs in the Vineyard or Shadows of Yesterday etc. My guess is they knew they were already in shaky water with the Trad establishment of D&D (who was waging a scorched earth campaign on 4e well before release) so they limited the transparency of provocative indie concepts like Cut to the Action (except OOPS "Skip the gate guards and get to the fun!") and Fail Forward because they were in the middle of a TTRPG culture war at that time (and EVERYONE KNEW IT...I was living it) even though both Fail Forward and Cut to the Action were obviously and clearly in the text of 4e from the get-go.
Is this from DMG 1, DMG 2 or the Rules Compendium?
 

Pedantic

Legend
Your position seems to be that serial exploration and sussing out the dynamics of a GM's attempt to naturalistically model and derive a hugely complex imagined space (like a biome...like a social system at scale) + granular task resolution mechanics + getting the GM to decide in your favor ("playing/gaming the GM") when a conflict is over vs when its still in the balance (because this is always governed by GM decides in these systems)

So I actually don't have a problem with any of this except the bolded part. Yes, absolutely, the GM is a window into a non-existent world they are attempting to simulate to the best of their ability at all times. They are a deist god who set a world in motion, and also the camera unto that world as necessary. We can argue about whether that's practical or not I suppose, but that's the design basis I'm coming from when talking about these kinds of challenges. The castle exists, independently of whether the PCs will ever engage with it, and has traits that are only interesting to them should they appear there. It's an obviously impossible task to actively simulate an entire additional universe in full, but it's not particularly difficult to emulate doing that at the point of PC contact, and design choices flow from assuming that's the norm.

The bolded section is just wrong. I have no idea what you mean by "when a conflict is over" without the framework of a skill challenge or timer. Whatever is happening is happening, and if a player wants a particular outcome, they have a bunch of actions available to change the world to their liking. A conflict ends when the PC has gotten the thing they wanted, or it is no longer possible for them to get the thing they wanted.

This is the thing I keep talking about, where the PC sets the victory condition, and gets to change it whenever they want. They decide what it is they want, and then spend their available actions to get to that point. The story of a given campaign is the ex post facto stringing together of that PC chasing each of those goals and recording what happened from point A to point B along the way.

More to the point though, removing the GM from resolution is the primary goal of such a system. Actions have discreet effects and consequences, so you can figure out what happens by plugging a PC choice into the mechanics for resolving that action, and be handed a result. Then you reevaluate the state of the world, any other parties that can take actions do so, and you repeat. Continue until everyone is dead or the PC has gotten whatever it is they wanted done.
 

Pedantic

Legend
We might have different goals. OTOH I don't think the situation lacks opportunity for skilled play. There can be a huge difference in outcomes depending on how well you approach the problem you are solving! Pick the wrong skill, act rashly, be too conservative, take a path you are not well equipped for, you will find it much harder. This is tactics, is it not?

So, I think we can summarize the difference in agency we're discussing pretty simply. In a skill challenge framework a players the following two points of agency:
1. Which skill they're rolling
2. Which difficulty they're rolling against.

Those might be limited in various ways by the situation, and depending on the structure, they may also get:

3. Spend resource to ignore roll.

I'm proposing that players should additional have the agency:

4. Adjust number of rolls until victory.

And that this is best achieved by leaving victory undefined until the player decides they've achieved it, and by limiting resolution to each individual roll.

I don't think what you are contrasting with is any different! How does a player have any idea what paths are likely to be more or less tactically advantageous when the GM presents a serial set of 'checks' to pass? Worse, how do you even gauge the consequences? The player doesn't know what is at risk and what the costs are. IME this leads to very conservative 'save all my resources and take no risks' play.

You don't necessarily know, but you're certainly going to do your best to manipulate any situation to cut down on risk as much as possible. Consequences are intrinsic to actions, the primary cost being time, and other consequences following naturally in reaction to events. And yes, conservative is a fine descriptor of the sort of play I'm after. Players are trying to be efficient and effective with their resources, but you know, face a whole fantasy world full of problems and will be forced to expend them.

No, because you have no idea what the GM is actually going to decide is how many checks you need to pass given any particular path that you take! There's nothing tactical about a blind walk. At best the player is playing their intuition and experience as a gamer or with the GM and considering 'what makes sense', which is exactly what they are doing when they decide which skill to utilize in an SC and what matching action to take.

Not knowing I don't have any agency to improve my situation does not actively improve my agency, and merely makes whatever game I'm playing more frustrating. Now the player has to play a meta-game to figure out what game they're in, and then attempt to optimize for that.

. Now they could calculate the heck out of what would maximize their math, but they also had to contend with the fiction at the same time.

The math is not hard on these, and more to the point, in a sufficiently well designed system there is no functional difference between trying to optimize your chances of success and engaging with the fictional state. Your character, it can generally be assumed, is competent, wants to survive, and has the goals you've given them. Optimizing their chances of success is exactly how one engages with the world.

I'm not sure what you mean about standing in opposition...

My entire point has repeatedly been that skill challenges are a low-agency game, and that limited agency is less enjoyable than a higher agency state for a given specific kind of enjoyment. You could argue that reading a book for example is the lowest possible form of engagement on that scale, as you cannot influence the events at all, while writing a book is the highest possible, because no event can occur beyond your agency. Roleplaying games can occupy this delightful middle space where you have complete control over 1 competent individual inside an otherwise open-ended setting.
 

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