D&D General The Resurrection of Mike Mearls Games.

SteveC · Jan 25, 2024

This is such a good example of how tough it is for D&D because it needs to be all things to all people. Without feats and multiclassing D&D offers very little customization aside from choosing spells. If you're not a spellcaster, you pretty much know everything about your class once you choose your subclass. That, would be a game I'd have zero interest in playing. And yet people are saying the exact opposite, so D&D needs to jump through hoops to keep us both interested.

Zaukrie · Jan 25, 2024

SteveC said:
This is such a good example of how tough it is for D&D because it needs to be all things to all people. Without feats and multiclassing D&D offers very little customization aside from choosing spells. If you're not a spellcaster, you pretty much know everything about your class once you choose your subclass. That, would be a game I'd have zero interest in playing. And yet people are saying the exact opposite, so D&D needs to jump through hoops to keep us both interested.

Well, that relates to the technical debt.....no options other than subclass ..... if you had prestige classes, or lots of choices as you level, you'd have more customizable characters than subclasses. That's my issue with subclasses, once you choose one, that's it, you know almost everything about your class at level 3. Blech. So I don't think people are saying what you think they are, not exactly anyway. The issue isn't that subclasses exist, it is that that is the only real choice you make and you make it once at 3rd level (sure, feats can do a little).

darjr · Jan 25, 2024

SteveC said:
This is such a good example of how tough it is for D&D because it needs to be all things to all people. Without feats and multiclassing D&D offers very little customization aside from choosing spells. If you're not a spellcaster, you pretty much know everything about your class once you choose your subclass. That, would be a game I'd have zero interest in playing. And yet people are saying the exact opposite, so D&D needs to jump through hoops to keep us both interested.

Yup. So many people either don’t realize or dismiss it.

It’s actually harder than you state too. Because it also has to fit commercial and corporate needs and claim daunting sales/profit numbers. All of which is, in my book, bad and good. Good that it can sustain a large endeavor and bad that sometimes it will impact design. Either in the game or it’s presentation.

cbwjm · Jan 25, 2024

Zaukrie said:
Well, that relates to the technical debt.....no options other than subclass ..... if you had prestige classes, or lots of choices as you level, you'd have more customizable characters than subclasses. That's my issue with subclasses, once you choose one, that's it, you know almost everything about your class at level 3. Blech. So I don't think people are saying what you think they are, not exactly anyway. The issue isn't that subclasses exist, it is that that is the only real choice you make and you make it once at 3rd level (sure, feats can do a little).

I don't really think that's much of an issue, because that's how we played for years before 3e and prestige classes came out. However, I do think that something like shadow of the demon lord which let's you choose your class, later an expert class, and at higher levels a master class to customise you character is pretty rad.

The main issue I have with subclasses is that they follow a different leveling structure for each class, it's one reason why I liked the early play tests for 5.5 because it looked like they were standardising them which means that you could easily have a subclass that can be picked up by more than one class.

SteveC · Jan 25, 2024

Zaukrie said:
Well, that relates to the technical debt.....no options other than subclass ..... if you had prestige classes, or lots of choices as you level, you'd have more customizable characters than subclasses. That's my issue with subclasses, once you choose one, that's it, you know almost everything about your class at level 3. Blech. So I don't think people are saying what you think they are, not exactly anyway. The issue isn't that subclasses exist, it is that that is the only real choice you make and you make it once at 3rd level (sure, feats can do a little).

Well we have had people in this thread say "no feats or multiclass" in my game (@darjr) so I think it is something people do. And I have no doubt that it works for them and is a great game. I have also had friends ask me about doing that exact thing to make things easier and reduce the game's complexity with new players. So no yucking on anyone's yum for campaign types.

But you're right: with a subclass and most martial classes it's just as you say, at third level you don't really have choices to make.

And for some people that's great and it's the game they want to play. For me, coming from playing since the 70s, I want customization because I've played the basics multiple times all the way to "name" levels. And that's the trouble with D&D being the point of entry for players to the hobby. From back in the day when we had the Basic/Advanced game modes, this worked. We had people playing very simple characters in a game with AD&D characters. It really did work. But I think any notion of having a "basic" game that was compatible with the full game would be a complete nonstarter.

SpellObjectEnthusiast · Jan 25, 2024

SteveC said:
This is such a good example of how tough it is for D&D because it needs to be all things to all people. Without feats and multiclassing D&D offers very little customization aside from choosing spells. If you're not a spellcaster, you pretty much know everything about your class once you choose your subclass. That, would be a game I'd have zero interest in playing. And yet people are saying the exact opposite, so D&D needs to jump through hoops to keep us both interested.

But like -that option does exist: Playing a spellcaster. Spellcasters are the complex classes for people who want lots of choices, and martials are the simple classes for people who don't. And there's some middle ground like Eldritch Trickster.

darjr · Jan 25, 2024

Yes please note I’m not yucking anyone’s yum here.

Only recently did I come to my personal taste and I may go back too. Running Mörk Borg and Shadowdark and other simpler games combined with brand new people at the table led me to these choices.

I’ve certainly ran and played in great games with all the switches turned on.

overgeeked · Jan 25, 2024

darjr said:
Yes please note I’m not yucking anyone’s yum here.

Only recently did I come to my personal taste and I may go back too. Running Mörk Borg and Shadowdark and other simpler games combined with brand new people at the table led me to these choices.

I’ve certainly ran and played in great games with all the switches turned on.

For me the light bulb came on when playing DCC RPG. You want to customize your character, okay...Quest For It. Instead of picking feats or spells or extra classes or magic items from a menu on level up, turn that desire for the thing into an adventure unto itself. You want a badass magic sword, great...ask around, learn some of the world's history, and sniff out rumors of where such items might be hidden and go on a quest to find it. Want to become a master swordsman, great...ask around, etc and go find that legendary sword master and train with them. It takes the boring mechanical bits and makes them interesting stories unto themselves. To me that's chef's kiss.

MuhVerisimilitude · Jan 25, 2024

SpellObjectEnthusiast said:
But like -that option does exist: Playing a spellcaster. Spellcasters are the complex classes for people who want lots of choices, and martials are the simple classes for people who don't. And there's some middle ground like Eldritch Trickster.

But this restricts martial classes such that none of them have any options, and casters such that only they have options. This is bad design.

Shardstone · Jan 25, 2024

SpellObjectEnthusiast said:
But like -that option does exist: Playing a spellcaster. Spellcasters are the complex classes for people who want lots of choices, and martials are the simple classes for people who don't. And there's some middle ground like Eldritch Trickster.

I personally don't believe we should ever say "Hey, we have this, so let's never think about innovating or making new things!" Making new kinds of classes for players who want advanced stuff but don't want to learn a new game is not only fine, it makes the game better.

D&D General The Resurrection of Mike Mearls Games.

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself

Zaukrie

New Publisher

darjr

I crit!

cbwjm

Seb-wejem

SteveC

Doing the best imitation of myself

SpellObjectEnthusiast

Explorer

darjr

I crit!

overgeeked

B/X Known World

MuhVerisimilitude

Adventurer

Shardstone

Hero

Similar Threads