Planescape The Great Wheel, the World Axis, and the Abyss

Xeviat said:

Right. What I'm saying is if I use that, then there's no CE outer plane. So I'm trying to figure out a reconciliation; either there's a different CE outer plane separate from the abyss, or the abyss is an outer plane that plunges through reality and bores through the elemental chaos (meaning it's a quick but dangerous connection between the astral and the elemental).

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You're assuming that the Abyss came into being after the arrangement of planes in aligned structure instead of before.

It's more likely the other way around IF going by the clues in official lore across editions.

Storyteller Hero said:

You're assuming that the Abyss came into being after the arrangement of planes in aligned structure instead of before.

It's more likely the other way around IF going by the clues in official lore across editions.

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They mentioned the 4e lore which has the abyss being created later.

If you want the Great Wheel I would treat the specific Great Wheel outer planes as elemental planes of alignment and being all there from the beginning and not coming and going so a full CE Abyss from the beginning.

Classic Planescape/Great Wheel cosmology has current Tanari demons coming in at some point in the past and taking over the Abyss from non-Tanari prior demons and Obyrith CE outsiders.

Shard of Evil into the Elemental Chaos turning a portion of the Chaos into CE planar area and corrupting elementals and primordials into new Demons and Demon Lords in the past who are now the demons in charge of the CE Abyss works fine, the only hole to be narratively filled in being how did they get from the Chaos to the outer plane Abyss. As I mentioned before, Tanari Demon Lords piloting a calved off portion of the Chaos and using it to invade the Astral Sea en masse and take over the CE plane is the way I would go. It also could tie into Blood War as the Devils want to cut off the demons from invading and taking over more stuff.

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Xeviat said:

So, the question is then, what was the Abyss before the shard of evil was planted in it, boring a hole through reality? The abyss could both be accessible from the astral sea (getting you to the Plane of Infinite Portals), and also be a conduit that bores to and through the elemental chaos. It could have been the home of the Oberyths, the plane of madness.

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I once did a whole campaign based around Obyriths. They came from a universe before the current one and had drained that one of all life. They made the Shard as a last ditch attempt to conquer the current universe. They sent it to Tharizdun wanting him to set it in the Astral plane. But it drove him bonkers and he cast it into the various prime planes or the Elemental Chaos which it warped with it's inherent evil and created the Abyss in which the Obyriths jumped to as a last resort because their universe was dead.

They created the Tanari and some Devils were corrupted and over time the more modern demons overthrew the Obyriths. That's the basics.

dave2008 said:

They mentioned the 4e lore which has the abyss being created later.

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The 4e lore has the cosmos existing before the Abyss, but not necessarily the multiverse in its current form.

The reconciliation I use in my personal cosmology is to treat the Elemental Chaos as a planar pathway. The World Tree was a planar pathway, then there was some catastrophe (the Spellplague) that destroyed it and cause this messy jumble of elements, energies, and chaos to stretch between the Inner Planes at one end, and Limbo and the Abyss at the other. The Great Wheel has always been there. The Elemental Chaos, if anything, is the rift in reality.

Xeviat said:

Hi y'all. For ages, I've been running games in my own setting, but I've been drawn back to core D&D due to getting a hold of the 2E Planescape books. But, I really liked some of the 4E World Axis changes as well (like Angels serve all gods, not just good ones). But, I also love all the lore from Planescape, so I'm playing with some blending of the two.

One problem that I run into is what to do with the Abyss. I like the Great Wheel and want to keep the 16 aligned outer planes as planes accessible from the Astral Sea, but I do like the notion of demons as corrupted elementals and the Abyss being a wound in the Elemental Chaos.

So, the question is then, what was the Abyss before the shard of evil was planted in it, boring a hole through reality? The abyss could both be accessible from the astral sea (getting you to the Plane of Infinite Portals), and also be a conduit that bores to and through the elemental chaos. It could have been the home of the Oberyths, the plane of madness.

Or, I could replace the Abyss as an outer plane with something else.

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Maybe the "Abyss" was once the transitive plane connecting the Outer Planes (realm of belief) to the Inner Planes (realm of raw matter)?

So it used to be the Ordial Plane? (That's the 3E fanmade/semi-official name for that hypothetical Transitive Plane) But if there were already Outer Planes, what was the previous CE Outer Plane?

Xeviat said:

Hi y'all. For ages, I've been running games in my own setting, but I've been drawn back to core D&D due to getting a hold of the 2E Planescape books. But, I really liked some of the 4E World Axis changes as well (like Angels serve all gods, not just good ones). But, I also love all the lore from Planescape, so I'm playing with some blending of the two.

One problem that I run into is what to do with the Abyss. I like the Great Wheel and want to keep the 16 aligned outer planes as planes accessible from the Astral Sea, but I do like the notion of demons as corrupted elementals and the Abyss being a wound in the Elemental Chaos.

So, the question is then, what was the Abyss before the shard of evil was planted in it, boring a hole through reality? The abyss could both be accessible from the astral sea (getting you to the Plane of Infinite Portals), and also be a conduit that bores to and through the elemental chaos. It could have been the home of the Oberyths, the plane of madness.

Or, I could replace the Abyss as an outer plane with something else.

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Here's something to chew on. Avarandor, the Land of Dreams, is the original Feywild, dominating the Chaotic Good position in the Great Wheel cosmology (though it also bears more than a bit of the NG Beastlands as well). Limbo (chaotic neutral) is just the Outer Plane version of the Elemental Planes - it might be known for gith and froggos, but it is filled with elementals, giants and dragons as well - elemental beings of all stripes. And the Abyss, well, its right below Limbo.

Hades (Neutral Evil) has effectively been merged into the Shadowfell along with Plane of Shadow and Ravenloft.

Then, moving up into the 4e Astral Sea, we have the Nine Hells as a domain. The domain of the god of civilization, which is a giant city of mechanical precision - sounds a bit like a 4e Mechanus. Swing up a bit to touch on Celestia... We've got Tiamat's home floating around, though separated from the Hells. The Eternal battlefield between the goblinoid god of conquest (LE) and the orc god is here as well. (edit- its not perfect, since there's a lot of traditionally chaotic-aligned stuff here - elf god, carceri the prison, orc god, snek god, though they all have been nudged more towards neutral than chaotic here)

While there are some differences, The World Axis is really just the Outer Planes circling the Material instead of the Outlands. The Astral Sea is generally Lawful (with a few notable exceptions), the Elemental Chaos is, well, Chaotic. Feywild is the Positive Energy / Goodly plane, while the Shadowfell is the, well, its a combination of all the "evil / undead" planes.

Charlaquin said:

Why does the abyss need to be mutually exclusive with a Chaotic Evil outer plane? You could have both.

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It's not an exclusivity issue. It's that the Great Wheel's CE plane IS the Abyss, with all its layers and all that jazz. So you'd need something that could replace it.

My suggestion, @Xeviat , is to take a leaf from Eberron and make the CE plane a realm of nightmare and madness. Perhaps the shard of evil was the "original" CE plane, but invaders from the Far Realm exploited Planescape-y logic to dislodge it from the Great Wheel entirely. This sent it careening into the Elemental Chaos, warping its nature etc. Fortunately for reality, the denizens of the Far Realm who plotted this didn't really think their plan through, and now they're stuck in a limbo, where they've "gone native" too much to return to the Far Realm, but not enough to truly live in the World Axis universe yet.

So they're plotting, scheming, tricking, coercing. Fostering Cthulhu cults convinced of the inevitable victory of the Far Realm over reality. Patronizing GOO warlocks who bring just a little bit more of the Far Realm into the World every time they use magic. Rewarding wizards who summon things of madness and unreality. Infecting mortals with parasites of body and spirit. Maybe sending agents to try to awaken imprisoned Primordials or steal the lingering powers of dead gods. Etc.

This could even be leveraged for fun interplanar drama. Demons hate the madness-place beings more than even how they hate devils, because the former usurped their place in the cosmos, by trickery, while the latter at least had the gonad gumption to fight them for it. Devils were willing to put aside even the Blood War, temporarily, in order to keep the Far Realm contamination mostly contained, and naturally angels and other upper-planar beings helped out as well. The one time Good and Evil all got along, when Unreality tried to take over.