D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

Gorck · Monday at 5:44 PM

Yaarel said:
Hypothetically, the structure for a balanced ability system, might look something like the following:

Power Precision Endurance (Passive)
Physical Abilities STRENGTH DEXTERITY CONSTITUTION
Mental Abilities CHARISMA INTELLIGENCE WISDOM

Interesting chart! I feel like I would have done the mental abilities differently:
Power = Intelligence
Precision = Wisdom
Which I suppose would leave Endurance = Charisma by process of elimination, although I’m still working through that one in my noggin.

Yaarel · Monday at 6:04 PM

billd91 said:
Physical Precision Mental
Offensive Abilities STRENGTH INTELLIGENCE CHARISMA
Defensive Abilities CONSTITUTION DEXTERITY WISDOM

The defensive abilities are used for all of the saving throws, offense for all of the attacks/damage/setting save DCs. It was 4e that put me on to this idea years ago, but I thought it missed the main mark by allowing players to choose which ones to use for defense which led to rampant but uneven dump-stat-ability for some classes.

The D&D editions intrinsically have four defenses: Fortitude, Reflex, Will, plus Perception.

In 5e, the "Passive Perception" is a variant saving throw.

This save design space naturally extends to averting danger by detecting it, or seeing thru its disguise. It works as a go-to for saves versus illusion, but also applies to nonmagic invisibility or imitation. Detecting an ambush also relates to combat Initiative.

To consolidate the conceptual duplications (Perception-Investigation, Survival-Nature, etcetera), it seems tighter to give the Perception save to Intelligence rather than Wisdom. This help makes Intelligence an appealing choice for a combat ability.

Athletics-Acrobatics need to consolidate. It makes no sense to jump without falling (landing), or climb without balance. They are inseparable. Body sense (gross motor skills) is a thing. The dilemma is whether to give this athleticism to Strength or to Dexterity. Whichever gets the athleticism also gets the 'dodge' bonus for the Reflex save and AC. Sensically but perhaps surprisingly, make "precision" Dexterity responsible for all d20 Attack Rolls, including melee attacks and missile attacks. Separately give the damage bonus to Strength. But where Strength Athletics is agile, including all mobility and wrestling, it actually gets the Reflex save to leap out of the way, and the AC bonus.

With four saves and perhaps two attacks, maybe an arrangement something like as follows.

	Offense	Defense	Defense
Physical	DEXTERITY Physical Attack Bonus	STRENGTH Reflex Save	CONSTITUTION Fortitude Save
Mental	CHARISMA Magical DC Bonus	INTELLIGENCE Perception Save	WISDOM Sanity Save

Theory of Games · Monday at 7:35 PM

Yaarel said:
This is just a first pass, to start getting a sense of what important combat mechanics might go where if using six abilities:

DEXTERITY
Reflex Save
AC Dodge Bonus
Athletics (Climb-Balance, Jump-Fall, Speed, Maneuver)
Unarmed Combat
Stealth Checks
Missile Attack
Missile Damage
Finesse Attack
Finesse Damage STRENGTH
Melee Attack
Melee Damage
Heavy Armor
Strength Check (Break/Block Doors)
(No Saves) CONSTITUTION
Hit Points
Fortitude Save
(No Actions)
INTELLIGENCE
Perception Save (Hidden, Illusion, Fake)
Find = Intelligence (Stealth)
Initiative
All Knowledge Checks
Medicine (Healing, Poisoning)
Deception Skill CHARISMA
Persuasion (prevent combat)
Intimidation (end combat) (inflict dis?)
Insight (morale?)
(No Saves) WISDOM
Concentration, Focus
Sanity Save (Charm, Fear, Domination)
(No Actions)

Still unbalanced, actually moreso. DEX eats into the value of STR and INT pushes WIS into the margins.

Yaarel · Monday at 7:59 PM

Theory of Games said:
Still unbalanced, actually moreso. DEX eats into the value of STR and INT pushes WIS into the margins.

That table with the overloaded Dex wasnt intended to be balanced, it was to get a sense of "important combat mechanics".

Still, that table suggests why eight abilities work well, where Dex splits into Dexterity and Athletics, leaving each comparable to the rest of the eight.

Yaarel · Monday at 9:03 PM

The six-ability arrangement here seems a way forward toward balance. Note, one doesnt gain a bonus to the d20 attack roll from Strength. Only "precise" Dexterity grants a bonus to the d20 attack roll. "Sleight" literally means the "slyness" of the hand, and applies to any kind manual dexterity test for hand-eye coordination, thus typically for noncombat but occasionally for combat. So, the physical abilities are starting to feel comparable to each other. The mental abilities feel too skewed toward benefits for magic (including advanced technology), and perhaps not useful enough in combat for nonmagic characters. Wisdom feels a bit subpar, when there is no "mental hit points" to shore up its combat application.

	Offense	Defense	Defense
Physical	DEXTERITY Attack Bonus Stealth Sleight	STRENGTH Reflex Save AC Dodge Bonus Heavy Armor Damage Bonus Athletics (balance, fall, tumble) Unarmed Combat Powerlifting	CONSTITUTION Fortitude Save Hit Points
Mental	CHARISMA Magic DC Bonus Persuasion Insight Intimidation	INTELLIGENCE Perception Save Initiative All Knowledge (medicine, poison) Deception (imitation, disguise)	WISDOM Sanity Save Concentration

NN · Monday at 10:36 PM

Rolemaster, which is clearly the best rpg, has ten stats.

I have them tatooed on my fingers.

Theory of Games · Monday at 11:10 PM

There's a growing "sentiment" (probably the wrong word) in the ttrpg community revolving around the validity of "ability scores". Like, what are they really good for? What part of the story DEMANDS the character have STR X or CHA Y or DEX Z? Do we NEED ability scores to roleplay?

Not trying to derail here tho. It's just a conversation I'm ready to have I think. Thoughts?

Horwath · Monday at 11:25 PM

The Soloist said:
Six is not enough. That is why Fantasy AGE has nine abilities:

Strength

Fighting

Constitution

Dexterity

Perception

Accuracy

Intelligence

Communication

Willpower

more abilities, more opportunity to dump a stat or two without real penalty.

MGibster · Monday at 11:32 PM

Theory of Games said:
There's a growing "sentiment" (probably the wrong word) in the ttrpg community revolving around the validity of "ability scores". Like, what are they really good for? What part of the story DEMANDS the character have STR X or CHA Y or DEX Z? Do we NEED ability scores to roleplay?

Gumshoe is like that. Your character doesn't have attributes like Strength or Intelligence they just have Investigative and General skills. Maybe your character has a high Firearms skill because he's really dexterous and nimble, or maybe he just spent a lot of time on the range, either way that's up to you to decide. Of course it's not just the story that has demands it's also that we're playing a game and you need rules. In D&D, they set up the rules so that attributes have an impact on saving throws, skills, and maybe some other things I'm not thinking of right now. If you want to get rid of attributes you need a whole different way to determine skills and saving throws.

Jonathan Scott · Monday at 11:33 PM

Yaarel said:
Like vancian casting, the six abilities are a recognizable tradition that works less well.

It is possible to clarify and balance the abilities by adding Athletics and Perception to make eight abilities, or consolidating the eight to four abilities.

• Strength-Constitution
• Dexterity-Athletics
• Intelligence-Perception
• Charisma-Wisdom

Both the eightsome and the foursome work well. It is obvious which ability to use, and which not to use. And each gets used about equally often during gameplay for about equally important things. Making Athletics the go-to ability for swashbuckling campaigns enhances the cinematic excitement. Perception merits its promotion.

But is it possible to make the 'classic' sixsome work well?

I cant yet make the six abilities work well, in terms of avoiding ambiguity (like facilitating agility themes, disambiguating Perception-Investigation, Survival-Nature, and so on) and maintaining balance (like Intelligence being equally valuable as Dexterity).

But there might be a way forward. In 5e, Constitution has evolved into a strictly passive ability. It is responsible for hit points and 'fortitude' saves. It seems possible to update Wisdom into a strictly passive ability, relating mental health in some sense. However I am unsure what its mechanics should be exactly, and how to balance it with the rest of the six abilities.

Hypothetically, the structure for a balanced ability system, might look something like the following:

Power Precision Endurance (Passive)
Physical Abilities STRENGTH DEXTERITY CONSTITUTION
Mental Abilities CHARISMA INTELLIGENCE WISDOM

Very Star Frontiers!

DEXTERITY Reflex Save AC Dodge Bonus Athletics (Climb-Balance, Jump-Fall, Speed, Maneuver) Unarmed Combat Stealth Checks Missile Attack Missile Damage Finesse Attack Finesse Damage	STRENGTH Melee Attack Melee Damage Heavy Armor Strength Check (Break/Block Doors) (No Saves)	CONSTITUTION Hit Points Fortitude Save (No Actions)
INTELLIGENCE Perception Save (Hidden, Illusion, Fake) Find = Intelligence (Stealth) Initiative All Knowledge Checks Medicine (Healing, Poisoning) Deception Skill	CHARISMA Persuasion (prevent combat) Intimidation (end combat) (inflict dis?) Insight (morale?) (No Saves)	WISDOM Concentration, Focus Sanity Save (Charm, Fear, Domination) (No Actions)

D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness

Yaarel

🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage

Theory of Games

Storied Gamist

Yaarel

🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage

Yaarel

🇮🇱 🇺🇦 He-Mage

NN

Adventurer

Theory of Games

Storied Gamist

Horwath

Legend

MGibster

Legend

Jonathan Scott

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