D&D (2024) Is it possible to balance the six abilities?

[leozg]

Like maybe initiative bonus doesn't even appear until you have 15 or more dexterity. So people don't buff up your dexterity to 14 automatically.

Made me remember Dex mods in Ad&d 2e where 7-14 Dex had no modifier difference, so players tried to keep it 7 unless they needed a bonus or were concerned about Dex skills.

 

[Minigiant]

Made me remember Dex mods in Ad&d 2e where 7-14 Dex had no modifier difference, so players tried to keep it 7 unless they needed a bonus or were concerned about Dex skills.

That's the idea.

Having a 14 Still gives you a +2 bonus to generic ability checks, attack rolls, and saving throws.

But you need a 15 to get the good stuff.

 

[James Gasik]

.Is a +2 to initiative really so big a deal that it should be gated?

 

[Tonguez]

For me the abilities matter. Skills are details to describe learning from training and experience. But the abilities are the talents, the general kinds of things that a character will tend to be good at even without training.

This is why prefer to call the abilities, "aptitudes".

Aptitudes sketch quickly the character concept in terms of competence and approach.

I like FATE Accelerated Approaches which they describe as telling you HOW a PC does something rather than WHAT a person can do (the old Attribute-Skill method). There are still 6 Approaches and they're pretty standard (Forceful, Flashy, Careful, Clever, Quick and Sneaky) but they can easily be changed to something different even Fighter, Bard, Cleric, Wizard, Monk and Rogue are possible approaches.
I am reminded that d20 Modern did a nod to that with its Attribute Classes (Strong Character, Careful Character, Agile Character etc)

 

[Minigiant]

.Is a +2 to initiative really so big a deal that it should be gated?

No.

But DEX's bonus to initiative is usually one of the little bits that pushes people to constantly take that 14.

I think if DEX initiative bonus and constitutions hit point bonus were gated behind a 15 like the old days then people would not feel obligated/forced to take a 14 in two scores every time they make a character.

 

[Yaarel]

I agree abilities matter. What I was getting at is the math that defines the abilities doesn't. Ability scores are just mathematical fluff.

Abilities are narrative deep structures. Compare the "five folk band" tropes for many stories today, especially "fun" stories.

Smart Folk (keyboard): Intelligence-Perception
Heart Folk (harmony): Charisma-Wisdom
Big Folk (drums): Strength-Constitution
Rebel Folk (guitarist): Dexterity-Athletics
Jock Folk (singer): well rounded

These D&D abilities are fundamental narrative building blocks, that help form a robust diversity of character concepts.

 

[Yaarel]

What I was getting at is the math that defines the abilities doesn't.

D&D is (and always has been) simultaneously both narrative game and a mathematical game.

In 5e, the mechanics is a d20 plus math to determine easy or difficult, and success or failure.

 

[Yaarel]

and Lifting (Str)

I strongly agree about the Lifting skill. We need it. Reallife powerlifting, weightlifting training, is a skill. To allow both bonuses from ability and proficiency, better represents the wide differences between how much reallife persons can lift. Also making Lifting a skill, more clearly explains why Human females exhibit high Strength. The Strength ability includes much more than simply lifting weights. It includes agile athleticism as well. Character concepts that need heavy lifting, choose proficiency in the Lifting skill. In gameplay, the Lifting skill is important in the exploration pillar, as the old school "bend bars / lift gates", and has combat applications as well.

With regard to representing weight in game mechanics, I hate guessing how much something weighs. I strongly prefer references to size. For example, a creature can typically carry without encumbrance, a creature or object that is one size smaller. Then let more difficult challenges be Lifting checks.

Add Endurance (Con)

I feel 5e is correct to remove the Endurance skill. It would be a crappy skill not worth choosing among the good skills. The very few times an endurance check happens, it makes more sense to check Constitution (Athletics).

Like you cannot cast in armor if your STR is lower than the Armor's base AC. Cleric and Ranger casting in armor with <14 STR should be a class based exception.

I like the idea. All armor has a Str prereq. (Or Con?) So, a character without the prereq cant successfully train in the armor.

+5 speed if you have 16 STR or CON.

I like Athletics improving speed. I worry that it is a bit fiddly. Maybe, the feat relating to speed needs an Athletics prereq.

Yes. By giving bigger bonuses for high ability score or real penalty for low ability.

The bounded accuracy of 5e cannot survive "bigger bonuses". Already, the bounds are stretched significantly − to the point that the lowest tier cant hit the highest tier. I like the situation as it is now, but creating more math disparities would break the game, especially if low level itself had huge disparities.

Initiative could be the sum of DEX and iNT.

The game math cant handle adding bonuses together, unfortunately. The closest 5e can do is granting 'expertise' or 'advantage' if sufficiently high prereqs in two factors.

CHA could grant bonus attunement slots or lower attunement if negative.

Attunement is necessary for game balance, helping to stabilize the math of encounters.

Relatedly, to remove Concentration to allow 'layering' spell effects breaks the game. 'Concentration' is narrative flavor for necessary power-gaming constraint.

The mental abilities tend to be too skewed toward magic benefits to be useful to nonmagic characters.

What if, one of the mental abilities granted a free cantrip per ability bonus. For example, Charisma +2 grants two cantrip slots? So a Fighter with the high mental ability also has some magical talent. These cantrips can scale with character level.

Generally speaking, in the same way that martial characters need different abilities for different things (like Strength for melee, and Dex for missile) I feel caster characters should as well. For example, Charisma determines the spell DC, and Wisdom (concentration, focus) determines range, area, and enhanced effects. Or something like this.

 

[Minigiant]

I feel 5e is correct to remove the Endurance skill. It would be a crappy skill not worth choosing among the good skills. The very few times an endurance check happens, it makes more sense to check Constitution (Athletics)

Many of the Con saves that aren't spells would be Endurance checks

Drinking/Eating contests
Traveling long distance
Enduring extreme temperature
Long distance swimming and climb
Acting while in pain

Heck, with new Exhaustion, you can let people swap a unmodified Endurance check for a penalized check of another type

 

[Theory of Games]

D&D is (and always has been) simultaneously both narrative game and a mathematical game.

In 5e, the mechanics is a d20 plus math to determine easy or difficult, and success or failure.

I get it, but it's possible to make a playable version of D&D that is almost exclusively Narrative.

Abilities are narrative deep structures. Compare the "five folk band" tropes for many stories today, especially "fun" stories.

Smart Folk (keyboard): Intelligence-Perception
Heart Folk (harmony): Charisma-Wisdom
Big Folk (drums): Strength-Constitution
Rebel Folk (guitarist): Dexterity-Athletics
Jock Folk (singer): well rounded

These D&D abilities are fundamental narrative building blocks, that help form a robust diversity of character concepts.

I'd posit that the narrative feature of Abilities is hamstrung by a numerical aspect that only truly functions when dice are rolled.

Back to it: There's the the old idea that D&D is a wargame. Ok so then how do you make INT, WIS and CHA valuable on the battlefield? I rarely see players - regardless of system - invest much of anything into social skills, even if Intimidation is more effective than weapon skill (scaring someone/thing off is usually a safer option than fighting them). So maybe it's a "setting player expectations" thing? Because ttrpg designers and GMs can shuffle the system-design deck 'til our fingers bleed but if the players just ignore the value of anything related to INT, WIS or CHA --