D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

Reynard said:

I know players that absolutely will not accept any sort of control spell over their characters, and would certainly argue against ANY suggestion as being reasonable. I kind of understand where they are coming from, in that agency is all they really have.

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I hear people make comments about agency too, but I have a hard time characterizing these effects as loss of agency. I certainly don't think being subject to a suggestion, charm, dominate, or fear effect would cause a character to lose any more agency than lying on the ground a 0 hit points would. They're all consequences of some sort of failure (or series of failures) in the characters' situation. And while they may be frustrating, they are part of the give and take of the fact that D&D remains a game and not everything goes a player's way all the time in a game.

billd91 said:

I hear people make comments about agency too, but I have a hard time characterizing these effects as loss of agency. I certainly don't think being subject to a suggestion, charm, dominate, or fear effect would cause a character to lose any more agency than lying on the ground a 0 hit points would. They're all consequences of some sort of failure (or series of failures) in the characters' situation. And while they may be frustrating, they are part of the give and take of the fact that D&D remains a game and not everything goes a player's way all the time in a game.

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I don't disagree with you, but some people would rather their character die a horrible death than be subject to a charm spell.

Reynard said:

As a reminder: it did not start out as a solo. it had a (nearly equal, CR wise) partner, who got one shotted with a save or suck spell.

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Mentioned in the last sentence of paragraph 1, which you quoted.

Micah Sweet said:

Well, if grapple someone they are restrained, so it is easier to hit them I think.

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Are they in 2024? In 2014 the creature is just grappled. A grappled creature isn't restrained--at least I don't think so--even in 2024. But I could be wrong as I don't have the books myself.

Micah Sweet said:

And any creature moving under their own power is potentially subject to OAs unless they are using the Disengage action.

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True, but it seems any creature being moved under someone else's power would be even more subject to OA--which is my point.

Scribe said:

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We have a team (albeit a very small, busy-with-life, one) working on it!

Flights of Fancy said:

Are they in 2024? In 2014 the creature is just grappled. A grappled creature isn't restrained--at least I don't think so--even in 2024. But I could be wrong as I don't have the books myself.


True, but it seems any creature being moved under someone else's power would be even more subject to OA--which is my point.

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In all fairness, forced movement should IMO still be subject to OA, but players would scream bloody murder, so I pick my battles.

Micah Sweet said:

You don't think the DM using these spells as written against the PCs is fair? The players may not like it, but I don't think you can say it isn't fair. After all, what kind of play is turnabout?

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Of course it is 'fair'.
But no fun. At least for me.

Instead of being slaves to unfun rules as written, and using exploits against each other to keep some kimd of balance, just change rules you don't find fun.

Which is what this thread is about. A fight anticlimatically ended by just a single dumb spell.

Rules are there to serve your group in having fun.

Flights of Fancy said:

True, but it seems any creature being moved under someone else's power would be even more subject to OA--which is my point.

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We really can't use logic with 5E rules of any sort, can we?

I don't think ANY forced movement should disallow OAs because I think having forced movement enable OAs is a more interesting tactical option. My logic with allowing OAs if the creature is under its own power is simply that the rules for OAs are "if you leave a threatened square without using an action to disengage, you get whacked."

Reynard said:

We really can't use logic with 5E rules of any sort, can we?

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Sigh... no, no we can't, can we?

Reynard said:

I don't think ANY forced movement should disallow OAs because I think having forced movement enable OAs is a more interesting tactical option. My logic with allowing OAs if the creature is under its own power is simply that the rules for OAs are "if you leave a threatened square without using an action to disengage, you get whacked."

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I just think it should be consistent either way:

Whenever you leave a creature's reach, you provoke an OA, whether you leave it voluntarily or not.

OR

You only provoke an OA when you choose (not forced via another creature's actions) to leave a creature's reach.

Having this sort of forced movement provokes OAs, but that sort of forced movement doesn't, just needlessly complicates things.

Reynard said:

As soons as the PCs enter, the wizard casts suggestion on the half dragon and compels it to just up and leave. It fails. it leaves. Suggestion is RIDICULOUS.

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If the bolded is literally what the Wizard said then by the rules the half dragon should have left, but as soon as he left he would have completed the task, ending the spell and breaking the charmed condition. So he should have gotten out the door and then turned around.

Reynard said:

The dragon swoops down on the monk, breaths, and drops the monk instantly (dying not dead). So it looks like there might be an actual fight to be had, even with the solo young dragon. Then the bard gets going with Dissonate Whispers (which triggers opportunity attacks). The dragon does not recharge its breath and unloads on the bard. Unfortunately, the dice were not with me at all.

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The Dragon should have swooped down and breathed on the Wizard to kill his concentration on suggestion.

Reynard said:

Anyway: how do you feel about save or suck spells in D&D 2024? Anything interesting, fun or frustrating to share?

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Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Command are overtuned in 2024. Command because it eliminated the need to share a language and THL because it allows upcasting to get mulitple enemies and now works on all creatures.

THL and command are good spells for any slot now. If you get one of these spell it really doesn't matter if you have anything else, you can be effective as an offensive caster with it all the way up until level 20. It makes a full caster that dumps their main casting stat a pretty viable choice if they can get these spells on feats and a different stat.

Dissonant Whispers is as good as it was before, as a control it is less effective than the current command spell, but does some damage. Suggestion has always been powerful.