Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Ok. It is helpful to me, because I value mechanics representing fiction (as opposed to being present for some other purpose) very highly.
What Do You Think Of As "Modern TTRPG Mechanics"?
- Thread starter Reynard
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GobHag
Adventurer
My own read of meta mechanic(which I see as a spectrum) is that it's if the in-fiction explanation is just a paltry excuse. At best it's an aesthetic inspiration.
The more that a mechanic is detached from the world, the more meta it is. This is why I consider spell slots to be mostly meta mechanics, you can't beat it out of them, you can't fungible it into something else unless another specific mechanic refers to it--you can be starving in a desert suffering from a diseases but you won't see any of that affect the amount of spell slots you have.
The more that a mechanic is detached from the world, the more meta it is. This is why I consider spell slots to be mostly meta mechanics, you can't beat it out of them, you can't fungible it into something else unless another specific mechanic refers to it--you can be starving in a desert suffering from a diseases but you won't see any of that affect the amount of spell slots you have.
That's a tenable reading of slots, I agree. Part of the issue in D&D particularly is that in most versions there is no real provision for losing slots as a consequences of a failed action, or of a failed save to avoid hardship. So they become weirdly silo-ed like you say. In 4e, by way of contrast, losing access to limited-use powers is a fairly typical condition/consequence, and so they become less "detached" from the imagined world, and so less "meta" on your account.
The characterisation of "meta" that I know best is this one:
compare the following: (1) an in-game essence or metaphysical effect called "Karma," which represents the character's moral status in that game-universe according to (e.g.) a god or principle in that game-world; (2) a score on the sheet which has literally nothing to do with the character's in-game identity, also called "Karma," recognized and applied by the real people with no in-game entity used to justify it. In both systems, Karma is a point-score which goes up and down, and which can be brought into play as, say, a bonus to one's dice roll. But I'd say that #1 is not metagame at all, and #2 is wholly metagame.
Mechanically, how do they differ? One thing to consider is how the score goes up and down - by player-use, or by in-game effects? Another is whether the score is integrated with the reward/improvement system - does spending a Karma reduce one's bank of improvement points? In fact, is Karma a spent resource at all? Still another issue is whether in-game effects must be in place, or inserted into place, to justify its use. No one of these indicators is hard-and-fast, however; one must consider them all at once . . . At this point I tend to think that the main issue, basically, is who is considered to "spend" them - character or player.
Mechanically, how do they differ? One thing to consider is how the score goes up and down - by player-use, or by in-game effects? Another is whether the score is integrated with the reward/improvement system - does spending a Karma reduce one's bank of improvement points? In fact, is Karma a spent resource at all? Still another issue is whether in-game effects must be in place, or inserted into place, to justify its use. No one of these indicators is hard-and-fast, however; one must consider them all at once . . . At this point I tend to think that the main issue, basically, is who is considered to "spend" them - character or player.
If we think about 4e D&D martial limited-use powers, these are "spent" by player-use, and there is no need for any game effects to be in place to justify their use - this pushes in the direction of "meta". But they are "recharged" by an in-game consideration that must be in place, namely, a short rest - and this pushes in favour of not-"meta". Who spends them? Well, the character can talk about performing the particular exploit - eg I'm going to attack them all with a Sweeping Blow - but part of many manoeuvres is that the NPCs/creatures are positioned/oriented so as to create the opening/opportunity that makes the exploit possible to perform. And it's not the character who is doing that.
I don't think it's a coincidence that these mechanics sit on the borderline of "meta"/non-"meta". That's a feature of some key D&D mechanics going back to hit points and saving throws.
I don't know the details of Force Points to apply the same analysis to them.
GobHag
Adventurer
I view karma 1 is practically a meta mechanic if there's no to minimal ways to interact with it in an in-world way; Are karma stealers common? can an ability drain it from another? What kind of reasoning would a'normal' player accept for losing/gaining karma?
But I do agree 'who' spends is an important consideration whether something is or isn't mostly a meta mechanic.
Thomas Shey
Legend
Well, any resource consumption needed, whether its the encounter/dailies, some kind of fatigue system or whatever can interfere with that. Making a decision to do something and having the juice to do it aren't always congruent.
Thomas Shey
Legend
But that's the problem; most of the complaint sources consider it well beyond aesthetics. That doesn't mean its too defendable beyond that, but there we are.
As I said, if you think that even vaguely satisfies their complaints, I don't know what to tell you.
The problem is I think you're focusing on a different issue than they are; there's is about the disconnect between the effort needed for different powers, not there being a resource at all (well, some of them at least).
Thomas Shey
Legend
While I'm no big fan of spell slots, that specific complaint only follows if you consider spells running on physical rather than spiritual energy.
TwoSix
The Year of the TwoSix
I mean, that's the nice thing about magic systems in general; you can always come up with some kind of fictional rationalization for its proud nails.
Thomas Shey
Legend
Though you have to follow-through. As someone upthread indirectly references, its actually a bit odd that there's not much I've seen over the years that can damage spellslots other than indirectly by lifedrain back in the day. You'd expect there to be at least a few.
TwoSix
The Year of the TwoSix
Yea, I’ve done that narratively, but there definitely is a gap for something systemic to add to the system.
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